Ange in or out?

[Silly McSilly Face]

A couple of genuine questions:

1. You said eventually he goes on runs where he wins and never stops. But what makes you think he can do that in this league with a much higher standard of opposition?

2. Do you think the injuries will subside given what’s happened the last two seasons and after all the hamstrings injuries Celtic suffered when he was the manager? I guess my question is will we ever have a sustained period where we have a fully fit squad under this manager?

On some level, you've got to admire the pure faith that believes we are on the path to riches despite the utter sh**e that has been (mostly) served up over the past 18 months and the fact that the person in charge of it all doesn't have experience at this level of football. Hope I'm there for that: 19 defeats in a season to Ange's Invincibles "lightswitch" moment. Hell, might even involve Brennan Johnson taking on his man rather than jumping through his underwear elastic every time he gets the ball....

 

[Muttley]

Both @parklane1 and me have said for a long while that us getting a real, top class number 6 type midfield player would be transformational for us. Somebody who only needs to operate in a small section of the pitch, reads the game well and organises others. I don't see a single player like that in our squad at the moment. Archie Gray could become that player but it would be incredibly rare for one so young to be that player already.
[/QUOTE]

I don't doubt a better number 6 would improve us, but I don't focus on that as much as some.

I think where I'm going with this is that Ange seems to want the 3 midfielders to spread out laterally (i.e. across the width of the pitch) whereas most managers keep them more central but at different depths (goal to goal). So perhaps Bissouma's default was to go and fill the left as the other two were centre and right. Any way you look at it, this becomes a weekly conversation about no number 6 in the right place at the right time when you need them there. They are all playing as 8s or 10s. I find it incredibly painful to watch.

As for a new number 6, I think people have to remember that we'll be in rotation mode in the future. If we aim for 60 game seasons, that number 6 can't be there to save the day all season. Eventually the tactical system needs to do it's part, regardless who plays there. That is on Ange and why I'm losing patience.

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

Do you think it's the players or manager then?

Look at Luis Enrique, bossing Liverpool currently. Liverpool don't look like scoring. Id have gone for Enrique when we had the chance.

Not sure if Arealoa is the answer. But anyone that is emotional and talks to the players throughout a game is a good start.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Both @parklane1 and me have said for a long while that us getting a real, top class number 6 type midfield player would be transformational for us. Somebody who only needs to operate in a small section of the pitch, reads the game well and organises others. I don't see a single player like that in our squad at the moment. Archie Gray could become that player but it would be incredibly rare for one so young to be that player already.

I don't doubt a better number 6 would improve us, but I don't focus on that as much as some.

I think where I'm going with this is that Ange seems to want the 3 midfielders to spread out laterally (i.e. across the width of the pitch) whereas most managers keep them more central but at different depths (goal to goal). So perhaps Bissouma's default was to go and fill the left as the other two were centre and right. Any way you look at it, this becomes a weekly conversation about no number 6 in the right place at the right time when you need them there. They are all playing as 8s or 10s. I find it incredibly painful to watch.

As for a new number 6, I think people have to remember that we'll be in rotation mode in the future. If we aim for 60 game seasons, that number 6 can't be there to save the day all season. Eventually the tactical system needs to do it's part, regardless who plays there. That is on Ange and why I'm losing patience.
[/QUOTE]

Agree with this. Don't think Ange wants to play with a DM. Think he wants all 3 midfielders to be mobile and attack the box. Also feel he values physicality and engine over technique. Think he really wanted Gallagher who is basically a busy no. 8 who just runs all over the place. That's his type of midfielder. It's odd though because we've built a team of players very like that but what that's created is a team that requires good passers and intelligent off the ball movement to not end up looking like a total mess and we actually have very few players with those skills. Romero and Maddison are probably the only really consistently good passers in this squad. So what you get is all these players bombing forward and the gap between them and the player on the ball getting wider and wider and the player on the ball looking more and more like a rabbit in the headlights until they either give the ball to the opposition who now have acres of space to run into as our entire team is beyond the ball player or they just turn and pass it back to someone who then gets pressed as again there's nobody to pass to... .that's what the games resemble more and more of 2bh.

 

[Mikey10]

On some level, you've got to admire the pure faith that believes we are on the path to riches despite the utter sh**e that has been (mostly) served up over the past 18 months and the fact that the person in charge of it all doesn't have experience at this level of football. Hope I'm there for that: 19 defeats in a season to Ange's Invincibles "lightswitch" moment. Hell, might even involve Brennan Johnson taking on his man rather than jumping through his underwear elastic every time he gets the ball....

 

[Bullet]

I want project-Ange to work, but the team REALLY needs to start performing well, week after week. However:

Against Villa we held on for 60 seconds before they scored. That is awful.
Against Ipswich we held on for 30 seconds before they scored but it was ruled out. That is a joke.
Against Bournemouth we held on for 10 seconds before Edmilson was through and Vicario clawed the ball away from the goal. That is embarrassing.

What's next, concede direct from the kick-off?
Simply, we need someone to sit and protect the defence (not rocket science) and do some slick, confident, first time passing that we are capable of.

It's not a lot to ask, I'm not asking us to go out and beat Barca, I just want us to play like we can.

 

[Craig_J]

I really don’t have anything personal against Ange: I feel he has been unlucky with injuries. But at the same time even when we briefly had a full squad we were still inconsistent.


I am wary of having a Ten Hag situation where we afford benefit of doubt and don’t move on till the next season is already in tatters. Only difference is Ten Hag held on because he beat City in the Cup final

I think it’s best we call it quits and move onto someone else.

We’ve had many managers down the years who’ve faired so much better and still got sacked

 

[tommysvr]

A couple of genuine questions:

1. You said eventually he goes on runs where he wins and never stops. But what makes you think he can do that in this league with a much higher standard of opposition?

2. Do you think the injuries will subside given what’s happened the last two seasons and after all the hamstrings injuries Celtic suffered when he was the manager? I guess my question is will we ever have a sustained period where we have a fully fit squad under this manager?

1. Because he’s got a higher standard of player at his disposal. He’s not managing Brisbane fudging Roar in the Premier League.

2. I don’t know. I’m not a doctor/physio and I have no insight into what might have caused/prolonged the injuries. Anyone outside the club who believes they have the answer to that or why the injuries happened is a fool.

 

[tommysvr]

View attachment 19038

Aren’t you the bloke that complains about his body language?

 

[thfcsteff]

It is a sign that our midfield players have poor positional sense. Whether that is one or more of them individually or them as a collective I'm not sure. It could be that the coaching is poor or it could be that the players just aren't particularly smart.

The weird thing is that it is seemingly a pretty easy tweak to make to our system. Ensure that one of the three midfield players always sits. Seems strange to me that this tweak hasn't been made. Maybe it has been made but the players aren't executing it or maybe it just hasn't been made at all? I wonder whether the issue is that there isn't a set person who has to the one who sits and the idea is that the person not joining the attack is situational but the players are disciplined enough to play that way.

Both @parklane1 and me have said for a long while that us getting a real, top class number 6 type midfield player would be transformational for us. Somebody who only needs to operate in a small section of the pitch, reads the game well and organises others. I don't see a single player like that in our squad at the moment. Archie Gray could become that player but it would be incredibly rare for one so young to be that player already.

Sorry, you have forgotten me in this one. I was bleating about it since Dec 2023 !!!!

 

[DeanoAustin]

On some level, you've got to admire the pure faith that believes we are on the path to riches despite the utter sh**e that has been (mostly) served up over the past 18 months and the fact that the person in charge of it all doesn't have experience at this level of football. Hope I'm there for that: 19 defeats in a season to Ange's Invincibles "lightswitch" moment. Hell, might even involve Brennan Johnson taking on his man rather than jumping through his underwear elastic every time he gets the ball....

That's all it is at this point. Not quite blind faith but not far off it. "He's done it before, he always wins in his second year." Like investing, past performance is not a guide to future performance. He's at a level now that is light years ahead of anything he's coached before and he's regularly being exposed and has been for over 12 months. I can't think of anyone who has gone from this sort of position to winning big trophies at this level. Not the way he's being exposed tactically.

But he'll continue with the rhetoric. He's done it from early on when he talked down the quality of the league and by repeatedly saying "I know that this works, it just takes time" as if he has some sort of secret key to success. He doesn't. The emperor has no clothes.

However, when he goes, he'll claim he had to manage in impossible circumstances and would have won with time. His supporters will say the same. I'll make a prediction now though - he won't get another opportunity at a club as high profile as Tottenham. And that, in itself, tells a story.

 

[metalgear]

I don't doubt a better number 6 would improve us, but I don't focus on that as much as some.

I think where I'm going with this is that Ange seems to want the 3 midfielders to spread out laterally (i.e. across the width of the pitch) whereas most managers keep them more central but at different depths (goal to goal). So perhaps Bissouma's default was to go and fill the left as the other two were centre and right. Any way you look at it, this becomes a weekly conversation about no number 6 in the right place at the right time when you need them there. They are all playing as 8s or 10s. I find it incredibly painful to watch.

As for a new number 6, I think people have to remember that we'll be in rotation mode in the future. If we aim for 60 game seasons, that number 6 can't be there to save the day all season. Eventually the tactical system needs to do it's part, regardless who plays there. That is on Ange and why I'm losing patience.

Agree with this. Don't think Ange wants to play with a DM. Think he wants all 3 midfielders to be mobile and attack the box. Also feel he values physicality and engine over technique. Think he really wanted Gallagher who is basically a busy no. 8 who just runs all over the place. That's his type of midfielder. It's odd though because we've built a team of players very like that but what that's created is a team that requires good passers and intelligent off the ball movement to not end up looking like a total mess and we actually have very few players with those skills. Romero and Maddison are probably the only really consistently good passers in this squad. So what you get is all these players bombing forward and the gap between them and the player on the ball getting wider and wider and the player on the ball looking more and more like a rabbit in the headlights until they either give the ball to the opposition who now have acres of space to run into as our entire team is beyond the ball player or they just turn and pass it back to someone who then gets pressed as again there's nobody to pass to... .that's what the games resemble more and more of 2bh.
[/QUOTE]

i believe most coaches would be able to use the players we have, a question of optimizing the setup and on pitch dynamics around the strengths of the players, allowing them more freedom to express themselves etc. i think its less of players going bad right now than ange strait jacking them into a mindless form of playing that's turned them into football zombies

 

[afsoc4life]

Ummm, I'd like to se him play for a better manager, and that goes for a fair few of our players

One doesn't need a new manager to tell that of all our wingers, Johnson has the least technical ability and flair. Even the much derided Werner is better at that. It is who he is.

 

[afsoc4life]

Do you think it's the players or manager then?

Look at Luis Enrique, bossing Liverpool currently. Liverpool don't look like scoring. Id have gone for Enrique when we had the chance.

Not sure if Arealoa is the answer. But anyone that is emotional and talks to the players throughout a game is a good start.

So Tim Sherwood?

 

[RigorMortis]

1. Because he’s got a higher standard of player at his disposal. He’s not managing Brisbane fudging Roar in the Premier League.

2. I don’t know. I’m not a doctor/physio and I have no insight into what might have caused/prolonged the injuries. Anyone outside the club who believes they have the answer to that or why the injuries happened is a fool.

He’s also against a far higher standard of opposition than he has ever faced outside of maybe World Cup and champions league/European experience and he didn’t fare well there

 

[Mrs Vert]

He also has a history pre Bournemouth, his Rayo achievements are worth looking at as well.



What players did Ange want that he didn't get? 300M in 18 months isn't backing the manager? can we stop comparing post Covid spend with Covid and pre-Stadium funding, it's clearly very different




Agree with @Robspur12 here, Bournemouth has more goals than Villa, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Forest and within 6 of City (who has Haaland), Scum, Chelsea with a good GD (one of only 7 teams with >+10 GD) in league

I think their press, and counter game is decent to watch, but it's what you like, I find the possession of possession sake styles (as example) awful but that's just me

I'm questioning how we spent it. I'm not entirely enthused that us buying a bunch of kids without a mix of experience was the greatest move.
I understand the strategy but again it will be a 2 yr wait at best for it to gel, if Ange stays that long.

It also doesn't help with the youth we have.....loaned out all our youth set-up. Have them play a little. Then go spend X amount on Tel who may or may not stay.

And prior covid, Enic have proven not to go that extra mile for our squad when needed. Someone mentioned if we wanted Nike, we got the the Teemu version. And I believe that still won't change. Just hidden behind getting "youth". And the chances of us finding more prime Ali and Kanes, are lower than us having Skipps, Winks etc.

 

[Jurgen the German]

1. Because he’s got a higher standard of player at his disposal. He’s not managing Brisbane fudging Roar in the Premier League.

2. I don’t know. I’m not a doctor/physio and I have no insight into what might have caused/prolonged the injuries. Anyone outside the club who believes they have the answer to that or why the injuries happened is a fool.

I would have thought you of all people would be fully aware that injuries have followed him throughout his career? It would be harsh to say it’s 100% on him, but Ange himself even said injuries will happen as players get used to his methods.

 

[Mrs Vert]

I have also come to the conclusion that this club has a history (which everyone knows) that we are nearly men. And I was flummoxed why under different decades, players and managers why we are. And I remember what Kane and Conte said.

We don't require excellence and accept losing. So people who join don't feel the pressure to deliver collectively. As much as if they were at bigger clubs who win and have a history of it. We accept mediocrity. And that's what we get

 

[Muttley]

I want project-Ange to work, but the team REALLY needs to start performing well, week after week. However:

Against Villa we held on for 60 seconds before they scored. That is awful.
Against Ipswich we held on for 30 seconds before they scored but it was ruled out. That is a joke.
Against Bournemouth we held on for 10 seconds before Edmilson was through and Vicario clawed the ball away from the goal. That is embarrassing.

What's next, concede direct from the kick-off?
Simply, we need someone to sit and protect the defence (not rocket science) and do some slick, confident, first time passing that we are capable of.

It's not a lot to ask, I'm not asking us to go out and beat Barca, I just want us to play like we can.

What's next? If we run out of luck, we genuinely could find ourselves 2 or 3 down after 15-20 mins.

 

[tommysvr]

I would have thought you of all people would be fully aware that injuries have followed him throughout his career? It would be harsh to say it’s 100% on him, but Ange himself even said injuries will happen as players get used to his methods.

He said it once that I know of. He's managed for a very long time. I don't recall it being a problem before but I also don't recall every part of his career.

I also have no seen any evidence of him being at fault, and I think people that throw that accusation around, with literally no knowledge of the situation other than "we've had lots of injuries," are being malicious.

If evidence comes out to support the claim, I'll happily revise my stance.