Ange in or out?

[Grays_1890]

Unsucessfully playing the ball out from the back/dribbling is a risk/reward situation. When it fails it will result in turnovers close to our own goal and players out of position. From this position the likelihood of rash challenges increases as it also does when not defending in set shape.

I don't think he's responsible for every single rash challenge made, but I think our playing style increases the chances of them happening. If we're not perfect with out approach play we give up high percentage chances. Even when we defend successfully it's often last ditch, Bissouma yesterday gave the ball away then tried to rectify his mistake, it happens but we frequently get caught in areas we don't need to be.

Part of that is an endorsement for better players though, I liked the signing of Bissouma when it happened but the truth is he has been vastly underwhelming under different managers, so I wonder what style does suit him so he is A putting in 8/10 every week and B not being so rash into the challenge.

This is the 4th perma manager where we are now blaming styles, the last 3 (I don't include the temps) were blamed for being too negative (one def was beyond a joke) and this one is being blamed for asking players to do things they can't.

Maybe 80% of it is the players are just not as good as they or we think

 

[tommysvr]

Unsucessfully playing the ball out from the back/dribbling is a risk/reward situation. When it fails it will result in turnovers close to our own goal and players out of position. From this position the likelihood of rash challenges increases as it also does when not defending in set shape.

I don't think he's responsible for every single rash challenge made, but I think our playing style increases the chances of them happening. If we're not perfect with out approach play we give up high percentage chances. Even when we defend successfully it's often last ditch, Bissouma yesterday gave the ball away then tried to rectify his mistake, it happens but we frequently get caught in areas we don't need to be.

Bissouma gave the ball away near half way IIRC. Honestly if you're expecting a manager to account for that decision making (and Sarr's) then you're going to be disappointed more often than not.

There's 11 players on the pitch and varying degrees of physically and mental state. He is responsible for us being wide open; he's responsible for (in my opinion) Bissouma getting dragged up the pitch to press way too often and leaving Palmer to run the game. He's not responsible for individual decisions like those challenges.

I said the same thing re: Ben Davies goal-creating tackle vs Aston Villa. It's not subbteo. He doesn't have that level of control.

 

[glorygloryeze]

1) You think Ange is responsible for Bissouma diving in like that and Sarr for literally tripping someone over as they're running away from goal? You think that's a flaw in the system? I can see why you want him out then.

2) I don't take everything he says as gospel. Have you done that with any other manager?

1) I think the system and his unstructured way of setting up leads ultimately to players running around like chickens, yes. I'm not obsolving the players completely, but they'd likely be less likely to be so rash in a system that had elements of composure at times (2-0 up at home being such a game and situation to show that). Various players seem to do things that seem rash, when it continues to happen and it's various players showing such then you know it's not just down to the players...

2) I don't take what he says as gospel either; i think he often talks crap, but actions speak much louder than words. Seems again you're focusing on such a miniscule part of what i wrote perhaps because the broader points you can't really argue against...

I mean, do YOU see anything from Ange here over the last 18 months that makes you think Ange can turn around this sinking shp?

 

[fernadez]

Bissouma gave the ball away near half way IIRC. Honestly if you're expecting a manager to account for that decision making (and Sarr's) then you're going to be disappointed more often than not.

There's 11 players on the pitch and varying degrees of physically and mental state. He is responsible for us being wide open; he's responsible for (in my opinion) Bissouma getting dragged up the pitch to press way too often and leaving Palmer to run the game. He's not responsible for individual decisions like those challenges.

I said the same thing re: Ben Davies goal-creating tackle vs Aston Villa. It's not subbteo. He doesn't have that level of control.

My point is that being wide open and having players dragged around the pitch has a knock on affect to players decision making. It's his job to find the right balance. There was no need for us to play like we were when 2-0. Biss and Sarr could have sat in, and we could have picked them off. Calm the game, calm the minds this all helps with what decisions the players take on the pitch. If we're compact and breaking when the chance is on, we don't get into a basketball game.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Regardless of if he stays or goes its hard not to see he is another manager suffering at the hands of "tomorrow never comes" in terms of squad development. I am massively encouraged by the progress in future buys, I think Bergvall and Gray are exceptional future buys, I think Ode is also one that looks a talent and Udogie despite looking knackered is still one I rate highly. The issue is clearly who is here for now? Solanke is big money and is a very good player, but we are still a massive CF down for the bench or as comp (I don't include Richy for 2 reasons). Son who I have loved is a season here too long, likely to be another. Could go on and on

Whoever gets the job has a massive job on their hands to punch above their weight

Exactly. That summer business wasn't that of a club that is ambitious for now. You can be ambitious for now AND be looking to secure your future, it's not like it's against some rules or anything...

Still, Ange should be getting more out of what he has, maybe not top 4 perhaps but we shouldn't be languishing in 11th; it's not like we have had a bad set of fixtures against top sides all at once etc

 

[Grays_1890]

Exactly. That summer business wasn't that of a club that is ambitious for now. You can be ambitious for now AND be looking to secure your future, it's not like it's against some rules or anything...

Still, Ange should be getting more out of what he has, maybe not top 4 perhaps but we shouldn't be languishing in 11th; it's not like we have had a bad set of fixtures against top sides all at once etc

But in all honestly, 4th to 11th, no one is winning anything in that batch of teams so does it really matter? For years people on here have said it doesn't matter being top 4, well now its time to see how much the people who said that believe it on the basis that the squad is far from much better than we are showing IMO

 

[SpurMeUp]

Part of that is an endorsement for better players though, I liked the signing of Bissouma when it happened but the truth is he has been vastly underwhelming under different managers, so I wonder what style does suit him so he is A putting in 8/10 every week and B not being so rash into the challenge.

This is the 4th perma manager where we are now blaming styles, the last 3 (I don't include the temps) were blamed for being too negative (one def was beyond a joke) and this one is being blamed for asking players to do things they can't.

Maybe 80% of it is the players are just not as good as they or we think

Or the critical issue are the fans who expect too much too soon. And don't let a manager have time to refine without making everything critical.

 

[tommysvr]

My point is that being wide open and having players dragged around the pitch has a knock on affect to players decision making. It's his job to find the right balance. There was no need for us to play like we were when 2-0. Biss and Sarr could have sat in, and we could have picked them off. Calm the game, calm the minds this all helps with what decisions the players take on the pitch. If we're compact and breaking when the chance is on, we don't get into a basketball game.

I don’t disagree with this part at all. But to say that directly leads to those 2 tackles is stretching it.

 

[glorygloryeze]

But in all honestly, 4th to 11th, no one is winning anything in that batch of teams so does it really matter? For years people on here have said it doesn't matter being top 4, well now its time to see how much the people who said that believe it on the basis that the squad is far from much better than we are showing IMO

Hmm, it's one thing to get constantly outmanoeuvred by the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea maybe Saudi Sportswashing Machine, but to constantly not be able to comfortably get past relegation fodder and get done by the likes of Brighton, Bournemouth etc, hmmm..

We shouldn't have more losses than wins over a period of 6 months or so. Our players aren't that bad tbh. Just maybe not good enough to get top 4/5 but should easily be good enough for top 6/7 imo

 

[Robspur12]

Your forgetting the chances that they showed on MOTD
The Solanke one, the son one, the son run into the box which was a pen if he fell over
We had 6 chances and 4 big ones according to the data and they had 2
I agree with how they tactically lined up. Helps they made 7 changes form Wednesday and that extra day rest again

I agree. But it feels, and I'm sure it's borne out by stats, that most of our chances are created through turnovers high up the pitch. This is a really good weapon to have but I think you need a varied set of tactics to create chances- clever movement, fast passing, dribbling aggression, and as Arsenal are showing, effective attacking set pieces. I think we are quite limited in the way we set up attacks under Ange. Now it may be that he is working towards improving other areas but it does not feel that way.

 

[tommysvr]

1) I think the system and his unstructured way of setting up leads ultimately to players running around like chickens, yes. I'm not obsolving the players completely, but they'd likely be less likely to be so rash in a system that had elements of composure at times (2-0 up at home being such a game and situation to show that). Various players seem to do things that seem rash, when it continues to happen and it's various players showing such then you know it's not just down to the players...

2) I don't take what he says as gospel either; i think he often talks crap, but actions speak much louder than words. Seems again you're focusing on such a miniscule part of what i wrote perhaps because the broader points you can't really argue against...

I mean, do YOU see anything from Ange here over the last 18 months that makes you think Ange can turn around this sinking shp?

You’re having a laugh, right? We’ve seen it in the past month. We dismantled the best team for the last 4 years. I know people will add loads of asterisks to it, but it happened.

It quite obviously hasn’t happened enough. I expected things to be better by now. But knowing Angie’s trajectory and where we are as a club, I absolutely wholeheartedly believe he can and will turn it around* if we give him time.

*Turn it around being very much open to interpretation.

 

[Robspur12]

Our entire squad is on fumes.

Absolutely agreed. But part of that is the high intensity system that he is playing. Some tactical flexibility might help manage this better.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Hmm, it's one thing to get constantly outmanoeuvred by the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea maybe Saudi Sportswashing Machine, but to constantly not be able to comfortably get past relegation fodder and get done by the likes of Brighton, Bournemouth etc, hmmm..

We shouldn't have more losses than wins over a period of 6 months or so. Our players aren't that bad tbh. Just maybe not good enough to get top 4/5 but should easily be good enough for top 6/7 imo

Didn’t Brighton draw at Arsenal and Bournemouth beat them?
Didn’t Fulham just draw with arsenal
Palace just drew with and should have eaten city
No team is easy in this league
Southampton should have beaten Villa

 

[Finney Is Back]

Take your pick then. Who do you want a report on?



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I ran the numbers for all managers as percentages. The fact that Harry Redknapp is by far and away the most proactive manager in terms of making changes during the middle third of the game will irk a bunch of the 'manager snobs' on here I'm sure

(Redknapp also the manager who made the highest percentage of changes at half time - which I suppose is the main driver of the above)

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I agree. But it feels, and I'm sure it's borne out by stats, that most of our chances are created through turnovers high up the pitch. This is a really good weapon to have but I think you need a varied set of tactics to create chances- clever movement, fast passing, dribbling aggression, and as Arsenal are showing, effective attacking set pieces. I think we are quite limited in the way we set up attacks under Ange. Now it may be that he is working towards improving other areas but it does not feel that way.

Well I can’t comment specifically
But the gaols vs city were a combo of playing out form the back and winning the ball high
Our best chance yesterday was sons miss which was playing out form the back down the left
We can and do mix it up
Big the high press chances are better by default because you also have the opposition out of position
But I do think it’s hard to mix it up when your squad is so limited numbers wise
He doesn’t have a LOT if options and now less so if Johnson is out

 

[Grays_1890]

Hmm, it's one thing to get constantly outmanoeuvred by the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea maybe Saudi Sportswashing Machine, but to constantly not be able to comfortably get past relegation fodder and get done by the likes of Brighton, Bournemouth etc, hmmm..

We shouldn't have more losses than wins over a period of 6 months or so. Our players aren't that bad tbh. Just maybe not good enough to get top 4/5 but should easily be good enough for top 6/7 imo

Its one season when the squad looks massively undercooked IMO. And as for Brighton, Bournemouth and even Fulham they are proving by taking a number of results and points from the top 4 that they are no mugs this year.

 

[glorygloryeze]

You’re having a laugh, right? We’ve seen it in the past month. We dismantled the best team for the last 4 years. I know people will add loads of asterisks to it, but it happened.

It quite obviously hasn’t happened enough. I expected things to be better by now. But knowing Angie’s trajectory and where we are as a club, I absolutely wholeheartedly believe he can and will turn it around* if we give him time.

*Turn it around being very much open to interpretation.

Hmm, ok.

How do you imagine he'll do that, form what you've seen of him in the past?
Tactical changes? New players? Things simply 'clicking'?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Didn’t Brighton draw at Arsenal and Bournemouth beat them?
Didn’t Fulham just draw with arsenal
Palace just drew with and should have eaten city
No team is easy in this league
Southampton should have beaten Villa

It's not an easy league, true.

But we've played 15 league games, won 6, drawn 2 and lost 7.
Is that what YOU would have expected, especially given how the last few months of last season ended?
And it was you who said Ange should be judged after at least 10 games of this season...

 

[SpurMeUp]

Hmm, ok.

How do you imagine he'll do that, form what you've seen of him in the past?
Tactical changes? New players? Things simply 'clicking'?

You don't appreicate the concept, that by practicing things, you get better at them?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Its one season when the squad looks massively undercooked IMO. And as for Brighton, Bournemouth and even Fulham they are proving by taking a number of results and points from the top 4 that they are no mugs this year.

This league is not easy, true. But it never was.
For every Fulham, Bournemouth and Brighton result there's also an Ipswich, Palace or Leicester. GHod forbid what happens vs Soton next week...