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American politics

Jordinho said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1349018177624289282
https://twitter.com/x/status/1349017323458453510

As usual, it's the other side that's the real problem.
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Basically, he loses credibility. Which is what he values most.

On top of that he loses his lifelong security detail, a 200k pension, and a number of other rather nice benifits. The guy is a spoilt idiot. Born into money, he can't accept defeat with good grace, and should he be impeached, he has no one but himself to blame. He's genuinely scared of this. I doubt he will be impeached, but his actions have resulted in at least 5 avoidable deaths and brought the US' democratic institutions under fire.

One thing you can't say about Trump is he's dull. The world has been entertained. From day one to the last day of his term, he's been exceptional entertainment value.
 
SpurMeUp said:
One thing you can't say about Trump is he's dull. The world has been entertained. From day one to the last day of his term, he's been exceptional entertainment value.
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Hopefully if all comers can beat him down to no-mark levels on the way out, he might scrape his way on to 'im a celebrity get me out of here' and actually be good value. :D
 
scaramanga said:
I don't know about his state of mind when making those statements but he's rarely appeared to me as a person that does anything he doesn't want to.

The only other quote I can see that could even remotely point to incitement is a comment about having to fight. If we locked up every politician that claimed there was a need to fight for what we wanted, there would be no politicians left.
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That is the point.

You seriously need to swat up on your crypto-fascism. You seem to be coming from the position that because he did not say "smash it up" he did not know. He did. He knows the line of intent, albeit he has stepped over that line many times in the last year. If you cannot see the markers he has been setting for years, let alone since early November, you are either sympathetic to his cause, willfully blind or simply unable to process simple statements and their intent. There again, by your own admission you put so little effort into watching what the man is up to, your perspective is probably not surprising.
 
braineclipse said:
I'm not quite sure he's crossed the line into incitement of violence, he might have just skirted it. Though that's up to any potential prosecutor and court.

For me Guliani crossed the line with his "trial by combat" line. But again, up to law talky people.

Outside the legal definition there's no doubt in my mind he's contributed to this. Constant claims of the election being stolen, voter fraud etc. And Opening Arguments seems to make the claim that he's broken the law in other ways in the process.
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Intent is the key.
Trump has been behaving with intent. That will be easy to prove, and I expect any competent lawyer to be able to go through his speeches in the last year and build a pattern.
Some macaron on Parler managed it the other day before it went down, a 2 minute video with various phrases that basically paint him as a crusading nazi.
 
scaramanga said:
The only other quote I can see that could even remotely point to incitement is a comment about having to fight. If we locked up every politician that claimed there was a need to fight for what we wanted, there would be no politicians left.
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I just re-read this as I found it both alarming and hilarious.

Can I ask, do you ever apply context to any matter of this nature?
If you are arguing for the sport of it, all good, I'm here all day for a bit of slap'n'tickle.

I'd be far more concerned if this was actually how you're operating.
 
thfcsteff said:
That is the point.

You seriously need to swat up on your crypto-fascism. You seem to be coming from the position that because he did not say "smash it up" he did not know. He did. He knows the line of intent, albeit he has stepped over that line many times in the last year. If you cannot see the markers he has been setting for years, let alone since early November, you are either sympathetic to his cause, willfully blind or simply unable to process simple statements and their intent. There again, by your own admission you put so little effort into watching what the man is up to, your perspective is probably not surprising.
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Even he's not dumb enough to think his hillbillies could win a civil war against a proper army.

That's the only route he had for victory there. There's absolutely no benefit to him to have done that.
 
thfcsteff said:
Intent is the key.
Trump has been behaving with intent. That will be easy to prove, and I expect any competent lawyer to be able to go through his speeches in the last year and build a pattern.
Some macaron on Parler managed it the other day before it went down, a 2 minute video with various phrases that basically paint him as a crusading nazi.
Click to expand...
Yes, it is a mistake to focus solely on his 'stop the steal' speech just before the insurrection, though that was bad on its own. Trump and his cohorts have kept up the steady drumbeat of sedition for months. The big lie that the election has been stolen and 'true patriots' must rise up take their country back. Trump, his goons, the GOP, the right-wing media ecosystem have been pushing this narrative for months and are all culpable.
Here's a good summary of how we got here from Ryan Goodman...
https://www.justsecurity.org/74138/...actions-leading-to-the-attack-on-the-capitol/
 
scaramanga said:
Even he's not dumb enough to think his hillbillies could win a civil war against a proper army.

That's the only route he had for victory there. There's absolutely no benefit to him to have done that.
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If you think he whipped them up for that one event then you're more naive than I thought. This is a 70 million plus market for him to plunder and abuse for years - $250 MILLION so far - come on Scara, keep up with the mad malevolent clamy muppet!
 
Rorschach said:
Yes, it is a mistake to focus solely on his 'stop the steal' speech just before the insurrection, though that was bad on its own. Trump and his cohorts have kept up the steady drumbeat of sedition for months. The big lie that the election has been stolen and 'true patriots' must rise up take their country back. Trump, his goons, the GOP, the right-wing media ecosystem have been pushing this narrative for months and are all culpable.
Here's a good summary of how we got here from Ryan Goodman...
https://www.justsecurity.org/74138/...actions-leading-to-the-attack-on-the-capitol/
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Indeed. He's been building for this since his "birther" flimflam...in what, 2011 was it?
 
SpurMeUp said:
Basically, he loses credibility. Which is what he values most.

On top of that he loses his lifelong security detail, a 200k pension, and a number of other rather nice benifits. The guy is a spoilt idiot. Born into money, he can't accept defeat with good grace, and should he be impeached, he has no one but himself to blame. He's genuinely scared of this. I doubt he will be impeached, but his actions have resulted in at least 5 avoidable deaths and brought the US' democratic institutions under fire.

One thing you can't say about Trump is he's dull. The world has been entertained. From day one to the last day of his term, he's been exceptional entertainment value.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately that viral tweet about all the benefits Trump would lose if impeached by Congress have been debunked...

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/01/viral-tweet-distorts-facts-on-consequences-of-impeachment/

https://twitter.com/x/status/1348688946507771905
 
thfcsteff said:
Intent is the key.
Trump has been behaving with intent. That will be easy to prove, and I expect any competent lawyer to be able to go through his speeches in the last year and build a pattern.
Some macaron on Parler managed it the other day before it went down, a 2 minute video with various phrases that basically paint him as a crusading nazi.
Click to expand...
Again, no expert on this, been reading around a bit and opinions seem divided.

Intent is one thing, and I think it's harder to prove than you think. What he's been doing is to me obviously morally wrong, but that doesn't make it a crime.

You also have to prove that what was said caused "imminent lawless action" (and that it was likely to do so). His previous speeches and tweets didn't cause imminent lawless actions at this scale at least, so I'm not convinced that counts.
 
braineclipse said:
Again, no expert on this, been reading around a bit and opinions seem divided.

Intent is one thing, and I think it's harder to prove than you think. What he's been doing is to me obviously morally wrong, but that doesn't make it a crime.

You also have to prove that what was said caused "imminent lawless action" (and that it was likely to do so). His previous speeches and tweets didn't cause imminent lawless actions at this scale at least, so I'm not convinced that counts.
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I am not a lawyer, but between the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping plan, telling the proud boys to "stand by" and the way in which Parler users have made video mashups using parts of his speech to call for insurrection, violent action and civil war, I'd say there are exceptional grounds to illustrate how since November 8th especially, his rhetoric has been the direct catalyst. The Parler video was particularly damning, as it showed perfectly the CONTEXT with which these people are taking his words, and how this has been the case for some time.
We shall see.
I agree with those that say the 25th Amendment would be a mistake as it is harder to prove plus seems like it'd be being used as punitive measure. The impeachment is a slam dunk. I wonder if, once he's out off office and a private citizen, you will see some of those who were victims in that horror show suing him. I'd bet on it.
 
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