2022 World Cup... gonna ruin the European Season

[seaside spur]

How many top players have won big trophies not playing with other top players?
Shearers team was the most expensive in the land… he was a record signing don’t forget
Henry was playing club football with world class players
The only time I’ve ever seen a player lift the club to win things beyond the level of everyone else was Maradona twice (club and country) and Joses Porto
Last year in France you had it with the title and that was a team thing
It just doesn’t happen unless you mean lesser cups like the Fa cup or league cup

I think it's a bit of both , what Jürgen said and what you are saying.
He obviously isn't Maradona or Messi but Messi, at nowhere near his peak is dragging Argentina over the line isn't he ?
He missed a penalty but he scored one and if the one on one has gone in or the scuffed shot had flown in then he would have got us over the line.
You don't get many opportunities in world cups or CL ko stages and Harry hasn't really ever done that bit extra under real pressure when it REALLY matters.
Even missing that penalty wouldn't have mattered if had scored another and we had got through.
Of course , conversely you could say if he was playing in a better team someone else could have scored or we could have defended better and kept a clean sheet and his first penalty would have been the match winner. He then goes onto break the record and we go into win the world cup and he's up there in history as a great.
To summarise : while he isn't playing in the best teams in these competitions , I think England arent that far off and ultimately he hasn't been able to take the game by the scruff of the neck and make the decisive difference anytime it has really mattered.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think it's a bit of both , what Jürgen said and what you are saying.
He obviously isn't Maradona or Messi but Messi, at nowhere near his peak is dragging Argentina over the line isn't he ?
He missed a penalty but he scored one and if the one on one has gone in or the scuffed shot had flown in then he would have got us over the line.
You don't get many opportunities in world cups or CL ko stages and Harry hasn't really ever done that bit extra under real pressure when it REALLY matters.
Even missing that penalty wouldn't have mattered if had scored another and we had got through.
Of course , conversely you could say if he was playing in a better team someone else could have scored or we could have defended better and kept a clean sheet and his first penalty would have been the match winner. He then goes onto break the record and we go into win the world cup and he's up there in history as a great.
To summarise : while he isn't playing in the best teams in these competitions , I think England arent that far off and ultimately he hasn't been able to take the game by the scruff of the neck and make the decisive difference anytime it has really mattered.

Let’s see if Argentina win it
If they do I’d agree
TBH Modric has dragged a side further at international level than Messi IMO
And rewriting history… if the ref hadn’t given the first penalty and Kane scored (the first half one I mean) and not given Frances goal because they fouled saka
And if my hair grew back…

 

[Jurgen the German]

Let’s see if Argentina win it
If they do I’d agree
TBH Modric has dragged a side further at international level than Messi IMO
And rewriting history… if the ref hadn’t given the first penalty and Kane scored (the first half one I mean) and not given Frances goal because they fouled saka
And if my hair grew back…

Do you think Kane’s performances have been good enough in big games? I get your point about not having world class teammates, but for me he doesn’t influence the game enough given his range of passing. He runs the game in the premier league when he’s on top form.

 

[seaside spur]

Let’s see if Argentina win it
If they do I’d agree
TBH Modric has dragged a side further at international level than Messi IMO
And rewriting history… if the ref hadn’t given the first penalty and Kane scored (the first half one I mean) and not given Frances goal because they fouled saka
And if my hair grew back…

Yep a lot of ifs and buts.
One example , Messi misses penalties as does Harry but they are both good penalty takers.
Messi scored in the Netherlands game and then had to take another one in the penalty shootout. It was critical he scored , he is their talisman and this tournament is crucial for him to cement his legacy. It's the only thing missing. Under immense pressure he sat the goalie down and converted.
When it really mattered , when there was probably no way back of he missed , he didn't. Small margins.
I agree with you regarding Modric , carried Croatia for a long time and still helping go deep into tournaments. I would like to see them/ him win it but don't think they will.

 

[markysimmo]

Do you think Kane’s performances have been good enough in big games? I get your point about not having world class teammates, but for me he doesn’t influence the game enough given his range of passing. He runs the game in the premier league when he’s on top form.

He was excellent lastnight

 

[scaramanga]

Bellingham is more than good enough. Ditto Rice.

I keep hearing people claiming Rice is better than mediocre and I'm still waiting for his performances to back that up.

Bellingham's good but anonymous for large portions of the match (to be expected at his age). He'd benefit from playing next to players who are less defensive than Rice and Henderson.

 

[markysimmo]

I keep hearing people claiming Rice is better than mediocre and I'm still waiting for his performances to back that up.

Bellingham's good but anonymous for large portions of the match (to be expected at his age). He'd benefit from playing next to players who are less defensive than Rice and Henderson.

I actually thought Rice had his best england game lastnight

 

[scaramanga]

I actually thought Rice had his best england game lastnight

I agree. His best is around a 6/10.

Unless he has this huge reserve of untapped potential he's hiding away, it seems to be his limit.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Do you think Kane’s performances have been good enough in big games? I get your point about not having world class teammates, but for me he doesn’t influence the game enough given his range of passing. He runs the game in the premier league when he’s on top form.

At what level?
I’ve seen him do it for spurs many times
I’ve also seen him do it for England but when he does it makes the other players look better so they get the plaudits
Yesterday he was excellent and better than anyone else on the pitch apart from Griezmann IMO as an example. He was leading the team to be better than France which we were.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yep a lot of ifs and buts.
One example , Messi misses penalties as does Harry but they are both good penalty takers.
Messi scored in the Netherlands game and then had to take another one in the penalty shootout. It was critical he scored , he is their talisman and this tournament is crucial for him to cement his legacy. It's the only thing missing. Under immense pressure he sat the goalie down and converted.
When it really mattered , when there was probably no way back of he missed , he didn't. Small margins.
I agree with you regarding Modric , carried Croatia for a long time and still helping go deep into tournaments. I would like to see them/ him win it but don't think they will.

I’ve seen Kane score penalties in a game and then the shoot out. Very different pressure IMO
The penalty Messi scored vs Holland was to put them 2 up, not equalise. Let’s see if he can do it for them to come back if needed. His record on that for his country is actually poor.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I actually thought Rice had his best england game lastnight

Yep
He was quality
Had to be for us to control the ball as much as we did. Henderson was a weakness but run all game whilst on. Mount came on and won a penalty but then offered nothing and spanked a shot into the upper tier

 

[Kandi1977]

England? Rice and Bellingham have been as a good as any midfield and we’re miles better than their French counter parts tonight
Need a creative one in there so Bellingham can play box to box
Maddison should be given a Chance now (he was injured out here before people comment)
Need another CB too

Agree. Two of the 3 are as good as anyone else have. It's that third midfielder that is missing. I would have given Maddison a chance, at least after France scored the 2nd goal. But Southgate isn't exactly known for being adventurous. He likes his cloggers.
England were very unfortunate to lose. They were the better team on the day, but in this tournament, the better team have lost more often than not.

 

[Lilbaz]

Agree. Two of the 3 are as good as anyone else have. It's that third midfielder that is missing. I would have given Maddison a chance, at least after France scored the 2nd goal. But Southgate isn't exactly known for being adventurous. He likes his cloggers.
England were very unfortunate to lose. They were the better team on the day, but in this tournament, the better team have lost more often than not.

Could that be because when a team goes in front, they sit back and defend the lead rather than push on?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Agree. Two of the 3 are as good as anyone else have. It's that third midfielder that is missing. I would have given Maddison a chance, at least after France scored the 2nd goal. But Southgate isn't exactly known for being adventurous. He likes his cloggers.
England were very unfortunate to lose. They were the better team on the day, but in this tournament, the better team have lost more often than not.

Yep
Said it a mate earlier if Maddison hadn’t got injured in the groups it’s possible, but unlikely, that he may have been considered as the right side option to replace a knackered and limited Henderson. he needs to leave Lestah and go to a bigger club to get his england chance

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Could that be because when a team goes in front, they sit back and defend the lead rather than push on?

France have two options to attack Mbappe and Griezmann. The rest are creating nothing.
So it’s less about pushing on IMO (England had as much ball before going behind as France).
Games are won on mistakes and theh didn’t get punished for theirs

 

[Modrical]

Rice is an excellent player, and was excellent last night. Fine margins and all that, and unfortunately England were on the wrong side of them.

I expect France are favourites now, but we would all love a Morocco v Croatia final, would be nice for a new country to win. Any national team which starts Otamendi shouldn't be capable of winning the World Cup, so that give me some optimism that Modric and co have enough left in the tank to at least make the final.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Agree. Two of the 3 are as good as anyone else have. It's that third midfielder that is missing. I would have given Maddison a chance, at least after France scored the 2nd goal. But Southgate isn't exactly known for being adventurous. He likes his cloggers.
England were very unfortunate to lose. They were the better team on the day, but in this tournament, the better team have lost more often than not.

Be good to see Skipp complete that trio for the Euros

 

[Jurgen the German]

Agree. Two of the 3 are as good as anyone else have. It's that third midfielder that is missing. I would have given Maddison a chance, at least after France scored the 2nd goal. But Southgate isn't exactly known for being adventurous. He likes his cloggers.
England were very unfortunate to lose. They were the better team on the day, but in this tournament, the better team have lost more often than not.

Which games did the better team lose? Other than last night and possibly the Brazil-Croatia game, I think everyone who is in the semis deserves to be there.

 

[Jurgen the German]

At what level?
I’ve seen him do it for spurs many times
I’ve also seen him do it for England but when he does it makes the other players look better so they get the plaudits
Yesterday he was excellent and better than anyone else on the pitch apart from Griezmann IMO as an example. He was leading the team to be better than France which we were.

To the level of putting in performances that get your team over the line in do or die games. It’s not all on him but he is the best player in whatever team he plays in for the majority of his career, certainly since around 2016 onwards. I love Kane and will always defend him when rival fans say he’s just a goalscorer, he’s not, he’s almost the complete player with the exception of pace. But I’m not sure if he has that ruthless, killer instinct that the best players in the game have. Drogba is the ultimate example of a player turning up in big games. Granted he had class players around him but his record in finals is exceptional. Dragged Chelsea over the line or more than one occasion when the rest of the team didn’t turn up.

 

[Kandi1977]

Which games did the better team lose? Other than last night and possibly the Brazil-Croatia game, I think everyone who is in the semis deserves to be there.

Spain were clearly better than Morocco, same with Portugal, Brazil were better than Croatia, England better than France. And there were several games in the group stage as well were one team was clearly the better footballing team, but either were unlucky or lacking cutting edge. But that's football.