ENIC

[thfcsteff]

Don’t bother just enjoy the moment for the time being. Give them another chance with RDZ and we can revisit then if need be.

Oh don't worry I have absolutely no intention of revisiting anything, I was just answering your question

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think in an ideal world perhaps, but what players that you talk of would have been available and made a difference?

I understand why you'd ask the question because it's very easy for fans to throw stones but it's not our job to know who is out there and can help. However, it was quite obvious that we needed help at that time if you looked at our situation. We'd sold Johnson which meant that if we got an injury to Kudus, we were fudged out wide. Lo and behold, that's what happens. And then Odobert goes down in early February.

I think to be fair to Lange, in January, we were a decent distance from the relegation fight that he probably thought, "this is a bit uncomfortable but we'll get through it if we keep our heads". But that ignores how thin the squad was, the two years of constant injuries, the horrendous February fixture list and how poorly we were actually playing under Frank. All of those pointed to a ship that may have been some distance from the iceberg but was firmly on course for it.

While January is a tough window, I cannot believe that there weren't a couple of loan signings out there that would have helped and it was Lange's job to identify them. That's why he's on 500k a year.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think Levy, Ange and Son (all very different roles in the club) all leaving at same time tore the club apart, they were all huge voices and the void and comparisons don't come off well.

There is lot re Levy we may never know, I will say Simon Jordan's views on Spurs (his personality aside) over last few weeks at minimum indicates he feels they did Levy dirty (but as a fanbase we probably should leave the dead buried)

Charrington's statement is actually the most professional thing I've seen out of the club for post Levy and again highlights the difference between and executive and managers (Vinai/Lange), and he does say "did not have the right expertise in key roles", I expect they will buy but they/he/someone needs to assume the Levy role. Even if they do it for self preservation as Levy took so much as their front over the years.

With regards to the past I'd say that is the best course of action.

 

[Gazza]

These aren't shots. It's just your footballing opinions and mine are about as synced as our politics

You really are the Igor Tudor of the administrative set up here. How you got the job is beyond belief.

So when you say that even I don’t know what I’m “arguing about”… it’s not a little cheap shot? Anyway move on.

 

[Raziel]

I understand why you'd ask the question because it's very easy for fans to throw stones but it's not our job to know who is out there and can help. However, it was quite obvious that we needed help at that time if you looked at our situation. We'd sold Johnson which meant that if we got an injury to Kudus, we were fudged out wide. Lo and behold, that's what happens. And then Odobert goes down in early February.

I think to be fair to Lange, in January, we were a decent distance from the relegation fight that he probably thought, "this is a bit uncomfortable but we'll get through it if we keep our heads". But that ignores how thin the squad was, the two years of constant injuries, the horrendous February fixture list and how poorly we were actually playing under Frank. All of those pointed to a ship that may have been some distance from the iceberg but was firmly on course for it.

While January is a tough window, I cannot believe that there weren't a couple of loan signings out there that would have helped and it was Lange's job to identify them. That's why he's on 500k a year.

That doesn't work at that level

- Lange was free to make that call (it's his fudging job), but you then get judged on the outcome/validity of the call.

As it stands, it's one of the worst calls made in Spurs history, he and everyone who supported that call should be in deep brick at this point, and (and fair or not), someone has to pay the price, just like the manager on football field, the message cannot be that failures of that scale get you a second chance. In much bigger firms that Spurs, 2-3 Executives would be gone in next couple of weeks, it tells the rest of the club their is price for failure, cowardice and complacency

 

[Gazza]

I understand why you'd ask the question because it's very easy for fans to throw stones but it's not our job to know who is out there and can help. However, it was quite obvious that we needed help at that time if you looked at our situation. We'd sold Johnson which meant that if we got an injury to Kudus, we were fudged out wide. Lo and behold, that's what happens. And then Odobert goes down in early February.

I think to be fair to Lange, in January, we were a decent distance from the relegation fight that he probably thought, "this is a bit uncomfortable but we'll get through it if we keep our heads". But that ignores how thin the squad was, the two years of constant injuries, the horrendous February fixture list and how poorly we were actually playing under Frank. All of those pointed to a ship that may have been some distance from the iceberg but was firmly on course for it.

While January is a tough window, I cannot believe that there weren't a couple of loan signings out there that would have helped and it was Lange's job to identify them. That's why he's on 500k a year.

There was talk of Timo Werner coming back ha.

Ultimately they were proven to be right, we stayed up.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

And this paragraph sums it all up - it really is an excellent read.

"Tottenham’s collapse has been a tale of the players who left and were never replaced and of the directors too complacent to notice. They are an example of how corrosive a culture of apathy can be and how far it can spread, from the executive suites at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium to the training pitches at Hotspur Way. In a game so weighted towards the elite, they are a warning of how fast one of the wealthiest clubs in the world can unravel when it believes expertise is expendable and status locked in."

Just read this - was a very enjoyable read. Also enjoyed the quote: As one experienced Premier League sporting director put it, a club like Tottenham “can make a brickload of brick decisions and still not be this brick”.

What is interesting is Paratici wanting Frank out in November. Not being listened to, and then leaving. I think a big part of the issue is that because of all the change that was going on above the team, they thought that removing Frank would ironically be too much additional flux.

So there was little thought paid to was it actually working, was he even the right long term fit etc. They just wanted to get to the end of the season and expected that this might be ‘transitional’.

Again, trying to do too much too quickly.

 

[DeanoAustin]

There was talk of Timo Werner coming back ha.

Ultimately they were proven to be right, we stayed up.

I'm laughing at the Werner point.

I'm not sure how serious you are on the second point...

 

[Gazza]

I'm laughing at the Werner point.

I'm not sure how serious you are on the second point...

Oh I’m not … they escaped by the skin of their teeth. But we do need a reshuffle of duties and roles with those at the top.

I just don’t think you can account for the injuries that came after the window. We were very unlucky.

January window is usually brick, I’m thinking they were not prepared to back Thomas Frank in the market.

The other thing it’s easy to say get some loans in anything etc … I’m not giving them a pass by the way.

 

[LutonSpurs]

You really are the Igor Tudor of the administrative set up here. How you got the job is beyond belief.

So when you say that even I don’t know what I’m “arguing about”… it’s not a little cheap shot? Anyway move on.

I don't really do any admin tbh. You should get over it. And also I rarely do know what you mean. I doubt msot people do.

 

[spursfan1976]

Can I ask, does anyone know who the sizeable gentleman is that was sat at the back of the directors box yesterday??

 

[Raziel]

There was talk of Timo Werner coming back ha.

Ultimately they were proven to be right, we stayed up.

We were 90 minutes and one bad performance from not.

This isn't a teenager getting away with one, this is ultimately a poor decision that ended up risking everything (not even talking about money lost, potential challenges with players wanting out, it being harder to sell the club to future players because 17th twice in a row is no longer a one off).

To have credit for success at the top level in an executive role, you actually have to
- Call the outcome in advance (beginning of year with some mid-year adjustments)
- Be able to articulate what your plan was/is
- Show a history of success (this isn't the first/only time)

Vinai/Lange fail at all three
- Did they call us finishing 17th on the last fudging day? what did they think was success? why did they get the medical forecast so wrong?
- What was the plan? back Frank until untenable, hire an interim (that failed as well), the throw all the money at RDZ and pray?
- This is more than one season now for Lange

 

[Kane]

These aren't shots. It's just your footballing opinions and mine are about as synced as our politics.

Be that as it may, is there something inherently wrong with that on an internet discussion forum?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I think it's fair to reserve judgement until the summer window in terms of signings to be honest. People keep going on about that January window, who on earth was we going to attract that could actually add value? It's a difficult enough window at the best of times, let alone when we are near the bottom. We tried for Semenyo but stood no chance against City. All we would have ended up with would have been more Connor Gallagher types who we are then stuck with and can't get rid of.

You might not agree with it, but I can see the logic behind not just spending on more deadwood for numbers and was a gamble that paid off. If they don't deliver in the summer then they are very much open to big criticism...,,

That analysis completely ignores the loan system?

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

Can I ask, does anyone know who the sizeable gentleman is that was sat at the back of the directors box yesterday??

Good to see that this forum won’t ignore the elephant in the room.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I reckon he is cooked, will be the one that gets hung out for the CFT phalanx....mercy killing.

I think you jest?

If the CFT phalanx move the needle on any decision making within the club...we have big problems

 

[harr1984]

That analysis completely ignores the loan system?

Doesn't completely ignore it, no one can come up with who these great players available for loan to help us were - just hide behind 'it's not my job to know'. If such players were available, I'll assume they would have gone somewhere else if not to us as we are far from the only team who would take decent players on loan - so who were they?

If there were viable loan options then I've no doubt we would have gone for them considering what we was willing to spunk on Gallagher...

 

[Gazza]

We were 90 minutes and one bad performance from not.

This isn't a teenager getting away with one, this is ultimately a poor decision that ended up risking everything (not even talking about money lost, potential challenges with players wanting out, it being harder to sell the club to future players because 17th twice in a row is no longer a one off).

To have credit for success at the top level in an executive role, you actually have to
- Call the outcome in advance (beginning of year with some mid-year adjustments)
- Be able to articulate what your plan was/is
- Show a history of success (this isn't the first/only time)

Vinai/Lange fail at all three
- Did they call us finishing 17th on the last fudging day? what did they think was success? why did they get the medical forecast so wrong?
- What was the plan? back Frank until untenable, hire an interim (that failed as well), the throw all the money at RDZ and pray?
- This is more than one season now for Lange

You do know it was a tongue in cheek comment . Sorry about that ha

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I think you jest?

If the CFT phalanx move the needle on any decision making within the club...we have big problems

Semi joking, I dont think they have sway, but there were tons of mixed "out" banners in the ground yesterday and I know as a fact the club have people checking social media for mood etc (all clubs do).

It would be the usual and seen as a quick easy win, chuck the fans a carcass to deflect

 

[Jurgen the German]

I'll try to answer some/all of that

Re Levy - He did a lot for the club, a lot that will keep paying off decades into the future. His football failures are vastly overstated, the club went from a previous decade+ of only finishing in top 6 once and not playing in Europe for over 20 years to finishing in top 6 with 3 exceptions in 17+ years, two trophies (not good enough) and the club's best run of places in the top flight in it's history (not PL history, total). And all of his failures have to be caveated with competing against the cheating of Chelsea/City and Saudi Sportswashing Machine, London fudging with us over Stadium planning/approval for a decade, Covid just when Stadium came online, and the true owners who would not invest into club. He also had some tie in (even if just a lifetime/25 years of personal investment to club)

I think what most people want is leadership (good or bad), and Levy was that, and we all know Frank would have been gone long before the club got to a risk position, and even it would have been panic buys in January, we would have bought (he wouldn't risk club status). Viani/Lange are not leaders, they may be competent in -1/-2 roles but they have shown not to be leaders.

Levy to me will become like the Ange conversation, you have to separate the "was it smart/right to move them on" from "we replaced them with brick"

Commercial success is critical, I know it winds fans up, but it's the reason Leicester won the PL and FA Cup and are two tiers down now, is because they didn't raise their commercials to match their success. Levy deeply understood this, when you look at the PL revenues, there is a massive gap between the top 6 and the other 14, so even when Spurs, United, Chelsea drop out of top 6, it really doesn't change anything because the 7th best side with earn 200-300M less per season, over 5 or 10 years that is an insurmountable advantage. No amount of smart club running will overcome that, Brighton, Bournemouth, Bretford will never replace the top 6 clubs and probably all will drop out of the PL in the next decade.

Now to pieces I 100% agree with, consistent football philosophy, the swings have hurt us with a squad built for multiple managers, it also dilutes our brand having Conte/Jose/Frank type managers, more than most we have had a claim to at least trying to play entertaining football. That said as fans, we would have to accept that a club that runs that way will not hire big name managers (unless you get very lucky and find one that somehow plays your style), Spurs may have to be content with more "aligned to attacking/possession" than say a scenario where club dictates style/formation/players and managers align (and I'm not sure any elite club does that anyway)

Re sale of club, I don't think it happens, and the chances of it happening with a good outcome is pretty low
- The last two big owners in PL are Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Chelsea, Chelsea is an utter clusterfudge and probably has long term financial viability issues at this point and lots of rumours that the Saudi's are tied of Saudi Sportswashing Machine, the limitations and would likely move on if given chance.
- Middle East money into Sportswashing is probably dead at this stage (they have bigger problems)
- Private Equity/American investment is a disaster, the bankruptcy rate on firms bought by PE is something like10X the average, they only know how to pay execs and asset strip, not how to make anything successful, financially or product wise (see enbrickification)

Our best hope is the owners eat some humble pie (Levy wasn't that easy to replace), be ruthless with the failures (Vinai/Lange/medical team/etc) and understand that success requires constant investment, and while commercial revenue will offset large parts of that, some years you just have to go to your pockets.

I think the idea that Levy’s failings on the football side are “vastly overstated” only works if you completely separate him from the decisions made over the last 6–7 years — which makes no sense when he’s been the constant throughout all of it.

Since Poch left in 2019, we have gone from Champions League finalists and regular top-four finishers into a club that has drifted further away from competing every single season. That decline hasn’t happened by accident.

Look at the managerial appointments alone. Mourinho, Nuno, Conte, then Ange — all completely different profiles with completely different football philosophies. Every time a manager came in, the squad had to be reshaped again, only for the project to be abandoned within 18 months. That points to a lack of structure and leadership above the manager.

Recruitment has been similarly inconsistent. For every good signing, there have been multiple expensive misses or short-term panic buys. We constantly looked like a club reacting to problems instead of following a long-term football plan.

And while people rightly praise the stadium and commercial growth, that’s only part of running a football club. On the pitch, Spurs have regressed badly since 2019. The football has often been poor, the squad planning has been chaotic, and the club has burned through managers while falling further behind rivals.

Nobody is saying Levy is responsible for every single bad result or transfer. But when the same person oversees the entire period of decline, from the end of the Poch era to now, it’s fair to question his football leadership. At some point the accountability has to reach the top.

I guess what I’m trying to say is he shouldn’t get immunity from the last 6-7 years because he was instrumental in lifting the club from a perennial mid table outfit to serious contenders. Even Wenger had to step down at Arsenal eventually after years of decline in spite of winning 3 league titles and managing difficult financial waters when they moved from Highbury.