What are we missing?

[billyiddo]

Average into better? give me some examples please?

Every single player of those peak Poch years were playing to the highest level/standard of their careers at that point in time and way beyond the level at which we bought them.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Every single player of those peak Poch years were playing to the highest level/standard of their careers at that

Yep
Everyone
None were average players that were improved. All were high quality players who peaked
Average into better is taking a journeyman like Moses and making him briefly world class to win the league
Unless we’re saying they were average players

 

[billyiddo]

Yep
Everyone
None were average players that were improved. All were high quality players who peaked
Average into better is taking a journeyman like Moses and making him briefly world class to win the league
Unless we’re saying they were average players

They were all average players that improved

 

[SpurMeUp]

Poch didn’t even want to play him until he had no choice
Kane is the painter he is because of Kane. It’s all on him not any coach. All his coaches have given him things of course but Kane has worked harder than anyone and added things that no coach did

alli did amazing under Poch but again, the talent was there. Did he exceed his talent or did his just achieve it.

I can’t, off the top of my head thing of an average player that became better under him. I can name plenty of younger players who got better but that’s the natural process for young players

I do agree a little on your last line. But systems are what all coaches use now. Poch was hard pressing 4-2-3-1 for example

Achieving your talent/exceeding it, two sides of the same coin. I've given you four players who've overachieved on where they were pre-Poch. Of course that is never going to be 100% the manager. It is a relationship with guidance, support, and confidence. That is what Poch did so well, he brought that out in players. Adapting systems to the individual and getting people playing well.

I am fully onboard with Conte's different model, which puts the emphasis on a system. But we are lacking confidence/ability down the flanks. Poch would get the most from what he had. Conte needs more ready-made confident players.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Yep
Everyone
None were average players that were improved. All were high quality players who peaked
Average into better is taking a journeyman like Moses and making him briefly world class to win the league
Unless we’re saying they were average players

Rose was the definition of an average journeyman that turned into a world-beater, mate. Guy was on loan at Sunderland and was a mediocre winger before Poch turned him into a world-class wing-back. Dembele was bought as a striker/AM, wasn't great in the role, and was an inconsistent, moody player who didn't even get into Poch's first sides - benched for Mason and Bentaleb. Turned into the best CDM I've ever seen at Spurs, barring Modric. Walker and Eriksen were so-so before him, became ridiculously good under him (although they were promising young players before him, tbf).

In later years, he even managed to make a midfield of Sissoko and Winks look passable, which is an achievement considering how utterly brick they both were and are (Sissoko's lovable commitment aside).

How many players has Conte improved? Dier, from godawful to just painfully mediocre - fair enough. Benta and Kulu, from Juve rejects to ridiculously classy - fair enough. But based on that limited sample size, you can't say he's outdone Poch, not yet.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

They were all average players that improved

Really…
Ok then
They all played World Cup semis and finals because of Poch
None came through at the generational talent model in Belgium
None had been voted the best right back in the league before he joined.
None were wanted by Barcelona as a kid and also other big teams before we signed them
They were all young and similar ages so could peak at the same time. That was great planing and luck and mainly before Poch a time as he didn’t sign the majority of his team

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Achieving your talent/exceeding it, two sides of the same coin. I've given you four players who've overachieved on where they were pre-Poch. Of course that is never going to be 100% the manager. It is a relationship with guidance, support, and confidence. That is what Poch did so well, he brought that out in players. Adapting systems to the individual and getting people playing well.

I am fully onboard with Conte's different model, which puts the emphasis on a system. But we are lacking confidence/ability down the flanks. Poch would get the most from what he had. Conte needs more ready-made confident players.

4?
You mentioned 2 lads at Southampton who were decent and peaked and left for Liverpool
Kane… well I’ve told you my thoughts
Dele I could agree with as his career has faltered since
It’s not a lot. He really didn’t have average players here. We had quality players that were growing as a team together.

 

[billyiddo]

Yep
Everyone
None were average players that were improved. All were high quality players who peaked
Average into better is taking a journeyman like Moses and making him briefly world class to win the league
Unless we’re saying they were average players

How do you judge an average player to be so? We bought players that top clubs didn't want to take a risk on or who were not even on the top clubs radars, playing at an average level in unfashionable leagues or for unfashionable clubs and as previously stated all performed to a higher level than they had previously been playing at after we signed them and worked them in to the team - i mean it's literally right there in front of you that we bought players and improved them to get where we were!

 

[SpurMeUp]

4?
You mentioned 2 lads at Southampton who were decent and peaked and left for Liverpool
Kane… well I’ve told you my thoughts
Dele I could agree with as his career has faltered since
It’s not a lot. He really didn’t have average players here. We had quality players that were growing as a team together.

What happened with the exact same players when Poch left? Or the two lads from Southampton when they got to pool? Not many excelled. Many reverted to average. I'm not saying Poch was perfect, very far from it, he had more chinks in his skill set than COnte. But he did bring on players and get them playing better.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Rose was the definition of an average journeyman that turned into a world-beater, mate. Guy was on loan at Sunderland and was a mediocre winger before Poch turned him into a world-class wing-back. Dembele was bought as a striker/AM, wasn't great in the role, and was an inconsistent, moody player who didn't even get into Poch's first sides - benched for Mason and Bentaleb. Turned into the best CDM I've ever seen at Spurs, barring Modric. Walker and Eriksen were so-so before him, became ridiculously good under him (although they were promising young players before him, tbf).

In later years, he even managed to make a midfield of Sissoko and Winks look passable, which is an achievement considering how utterly brick they both were and are (Sissoko's lovable commitment aside).

How many players has Conte improved? Dier, from godawful to just painfully mediocre - fair enough. Benta and Kulu, from Juve rejects to ridiculously classy - fair enough. But based on that limited sample size, you can't say he's outdone Poch, not yet.

Uh…. He was switched to left back by Martin O’Neill at Sunderland and won their player of the season IIRC. Journeyman? He only played for us
Demebele was moved into midfield by Jol, but Poch. Poch played others over him as you say
I’m not saying he has outdone Poch. I haven’t seen any player improve under conte here so far. But the revisionism around Poch because of the love the fans have for him is odd
Players get forgotten and his errors get forgotten too. He was not perfect and even when he left here he had only 9 years management experience

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What happened with the exact same players when Poch left? Not many excelled. Many reverted to type. I'm not saying Poch was perfect, very far from it, he had more chinks in his skill set than COnte. But he did bring on players and get them playing better.

Kane scored more goals and more assists
The other 2 left for a bigger club. I think llamana may have won the champions league too

 

[MKSpur]

Didn't Poch manage go make Lovren look good enough for Liverpool to pay 20m for him?

He wasn't infallible and the incoming he oversaw were questionable but I'm not sure many players have looked better than they did working under him.

I have a tiny concern bissouma under Potter ends up being the same for us.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Didn't Poch manage go make Lovren look good enough for Liverpool to pay 20m for him?

He wasn't infallible and the incoming he oversaw were questionable but I'm not sure many players have looked better than they did working under him.

I have a tiny concern bissouma under Potter ends up being the same for us.

Plenty looked amazing under Poch
But plenty were amazing players
Poch did his job and got them playing
I’d argue that the world greatest coach can’t teach Sanchez now or royal how pass and cross. No one has ever talk Hugo how to kick a ball still…. Or moura how to retain his position wide and release a ball whilst running. 3 of those 4 were Poch players

 

[SpurMeUp]

Kane scored more goals and more assists
The other 2 left for a bigger club. I think llamana may have won the champions league too

Lambert and Lalanna were stars were they? Hardly. Neither the player they were at Southampton. Alli? Nothing like the player he was. Kane had the inner belief, work ethic and dedication. Poch simply helped him realise it. His approach was very personal. Taking care of the individual. That has an effect.

I think Poch's modus operandi is ultimately flawed hwoever, because its not sustainable. Better to have a system that works, than rely on elevating players and adapting to them.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Lambert and Lalanna were stars were they? Hardly. Neither the player they were at Southampton. Alli? Nothing like the player he was. Kane had the inner belief, work ethic and dedication. Poch simply helped him realise it. His approach was very personal. Taking care of the individual. That has an effect.

I think Poch's modus operandi is ultimately flawed hwoever, because it’s not sustainable. Better to have a system that works, than rely on elevating players and adapting to them.

didn’t one of these players win a CL final against Poch? He also won a title too
That was after Poch

alli I agree. That’s a lot on alli too. Poch helped him get to where he was but also the game has changed and his role is redundant in the modern game

 

[SpurMeUp]

didn’t one of these players win a CL final against Poch? He also won a title too
That was after Poch

alli I agree. That’s a lot on alli too. Poch helped him get to where he was but also the game has changed and his role is redundant in the modern game

Playing from the bench as a sub yes. Hardly a star player then.

Conte needs to get confidence and fluidity from our WBs. And galvanize our mish-mash backline. Or does he rely on his DoF to be able to trade in better players? I think where we are now, we need to get the most from what we have. One of the best things Conte does is show huge loyalty to a team. Put faith and confidence into the WBs and backline. If we can get them playing, we'll be a cohesive team. Without injuries we weren't all that far away. Without the WBs and backline being confident and playing well, we have weaknesses.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Playing from the bench as a sub yes. Hardly a star player then.

Conte needs to get confidence and fluidity from our WBs. And galvanize our mish-mash backline. Or does he rely on his DoF to be able to trade in better players? I think where we are now, we need to get the most from what we have. One of the best things Conte does is show huge loyalty to a team. Put faith and confidence into the WBs and backline. If we can get them playing, we'll be a cohesive team. Without injuries we weren't all that far away. Without the WBs and backline being confident and playing well, we have weaknesses.

Older player then though… think he was 31 at that point.

conte won’t do anything until he has Kulu back… I’ve said thsi so many times. He is the player that creates the tempo for who we play. Him and bentacur work because they can control the game wide or central
We can’t do that without moura or royal on the right as neither has a brain

 

[Grays_1890]

Every single player of those peak Poch years were playing to the highest level/standard of their careers at that point in time and way beyond the level at which we bought them.

Spot on, anything else is history rewritten, Dembele, Wanyama, Toby, Jan, Rose, Walker, Alli, none had ever hit those heights before him and he took them to levels and kept them there for a while, regardless if that level was from average or good to excellent he was the man that made it happen.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The WBs need to have the ability to attack. So for me Perisic at RWB and Sess at LWB seems the best setup to invest in. There is creativity and goals in them. Doherty and Royal to cover and fight for the place.

We are work in progress. Sorting the back 5 is the key for me.

 

[Dicko]

What's missing? Much better players in almost every position! Next window needs to see a high quality signing or two. No more squad fillers from now on, only players to come in as obvious starters.

Although admittedly it's a tough ask, It's why we got Paratici in, and it's what Conte expects.