Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[glasgowspur]

I don't really see anything OTT in the criticisms of Ange. It seems to me that people who don't toe the line be it on ENIC or managers get shouted down. It's pretty poor tbh. From normally sensible posters too.

For example, I haven't said Ange needs to win trophies but rather that he does need to challenge for top 4 as a minimum this season. I have been a Spurs fan over for 44 years this year, and I think I'm a fairly sensible and grounded fan but I know how this will go. People keep mentioning Arteta at Arsenal as an example of patience paying off, it used to be Ferguson at Utd. These examples are so rare. Much more common is that the second season is crucial to a manager surviving long term. Either they start effectively implementing their plan as happened with BMJ, Harry and Poch; or they fail to do so and get sacked like AVB, Conte and Ramos. At the moment Ange is hovering in that second group. We know the history, he will be gone by Christmas if he doesn't turn this form around. So people can grind their teeth and stamp their feet about him getting a full season. He won't. And neither should he. This is a competitive football club not a charity.

He started well and then got into a rut that he is struggling to pull us out of. It's been since last November! People talk about small margins have gone against us in recent games. That's all there is in the Premier league, in many games, small margins! And if you don't turn them in your favour you don't survive.

The club have backed him, he hasn't made wholesale changes to personnel, in the close season (unlike Arteta had to in his second season), so he really needs to turn this around. There is no where to hide. He knows this which is why he is becoming prickly in post match interviews.

You've been one of his biggest sceptics Deano, but with respect you can't then try and row back by saying it's ok that results aren't going our way because we never win anything. Where's the ambition to change that? We came so close before with Poch, we had a fabulous team under Harry that should have won things so why shouldn't fans remain optimistic about winning things again no matter how unlikely. What's the point in being a fan otherwise?

So, and this is not aimed at you, if people come on a forum to discuss Spurs they should be willing to engage with others who hold a different opinion otherwise stay away.

Edit: just to add, people saying he should be given a season even if he can't turn it around by Christmas -I don't understand why? He has no credit in the bank, he has no pedigree in this league; he's just a bloke we took a risk on and at the moment it looks like it's not paying off. But I will gladly eat humble pie if I am wrong.

Good points, well made and balanced post, exactly what I would expect from a sensible poster like yourself.
However, and I bet you knew there was an however coming , where has sacking a manager after 15 months in or after a poor run of form got us?
Harry and bmj were possibly sacked because of a combination of football and non football reasons, avb Imv wasn't strong enough in the dressing room, Poch was absolutely drained and after CL final, over a season away from home, a season unbeaten at home, CL 3(?)years on the trot, stadium build, no spend in 3 (?) windows, if there's no credit in the bank there then honestly the club hold a very high bar, and one they are not entitled to hold.
At some point we need to dig in and give someone a proper amount of time, if not ange then who, because I don't see a lot of top managers out there who will suit our model, come here, stick around or do much better.

All purely my opinion, I don't say I'm right or your wrong, just my tuppence worth.

 

[Muttley]

Must admit, my stance on Ange hasn't changed one iota because of the NLD.

I still think it is up to him whether he falls on his sword or not. It is about his tactical choices rather than which players he has or doesn't have at his disposal. The only way we can find out is leave him in the role this season and see if his system can yield the results we need.

It's way too easy to always talk about "next summer" every season. Ange's job is ultimately to optimise what he has to work with in any given season. He has a very good and deep squad of players that will get even better in 4 months time.

What I'm expecting to happen next is for Ange and his players to go on a very good PL run. I think they will based on the signs we've seen from the 4 points in 4 games.

 

[braineclipse]

Good points, well made and balanced post, exactly what I would expect from a sensible poster like yourself.
However, and I bet you knew there was an however coming , where has sacking a manager after 15 months in or after a poor run of form got us?
Harry and bmj were possibly sacked because of a combination of football and non football reasons, avb Imv wasn't strong enough in the dressing room, Poch was absolutely drained and after CL final, over a season away from home, a season unbeaten at home, CL 3(?)years on the trot, stadium build, no spend in 3 (?) windows, if there's no credit in the bank there then honestly the club hold a very high bar, and one they are not entitled to hold.
At some point we need to dig in and give someone a proper amount of time, if not ange then who, because I don't see a lot of top managers out there who will suit our model, come here, stick around or do much better.

All purely my opinion, I don't say I'm right or your wrong, just my tuppence worth.

Agree that there probably is a time when it's right to dig in, give time. To me that has to be based on performances and how the team as a whole are heading.

To me that's hypothetical at this point. Things aren't bad enough to dig in. But may become a thing at some point this season.

I'm definitely in the back Ange camp. Really excited about what he can do with this team over time. But obviously I can't know of that hopeful excitement will come to fruition.

If it doesn't I'm less concerned than you about what happens next. We have a young squad with a lot of quality. We're a fairly big team in the richest league. As long as we go for someone preferring a style that fits our players that could work out well. That too is all hypothetical of course, we're not at that point at all.

 

[glasgowspur]

Agree that there probably is a time when it's right to dig in, give time. To me that has to be based on performances and how the team as a whole are heading.

To me that's hypothetical at this point. Things aren't bad enough to dig in. But may become a thing at some point this season.

I'm definitely in the back Ange camp. Really excited about what he can do with this team over time. But obviously I can't know of that hopeful excitement will come to fruition.

If it doesn't I'm less concerned than you about what happens next. We have a young squad with a lot of quality. We're a fairly big team in the richest league. As long as we go for someone preferring a style that fits our players that could work out well. That too is all hypothetical of course, we're not at that point at all.

I have my reservations over ange, I don't see him winning the league but with the correct ingredients I can see us win a couple of cups and qualify for the CL more seasons than not.
That should be more than good enough for a club in our situation, but it's not going happen in 15 months, not from where we were and not with the increased competition from Saudi Sportswashing Machine and villa.

Much like I think the success Poch enjoyed was premature and led to high expectations and his ultimate downfall, I think Ange is suffering from the same because of the great start he had last season.
Spread the 10 games unbeaten out over the season and then look at how we've started this one and I think the narrative is a bit different.

Yes it's all hypothetical, musings, ponderings and an excuse to not do any work, I point often lost in the heat of the debate.

 

[DubSpur]

It feels to me like this summer is the vital window for us to find out if Ange is going to be backed or not. At the three year mark, Arteta was given Declan Rice. He was also backed on the keeper front, even though everyone thought he was bonkers. Ange has yet to be given a signing as important to him and his system as Rice is to Arsenal. I think Arteta also had Odegaard and Saka in place, which made his task a little easier. We spend money but there is always a keen eye on the potential business return. Not saying that is a bad thing, but since the debacle which saw us sign two big players for Poch and then sack him, we have been more prudent. Again I understand the parameters as to why that might be, but the truth is that Ange's style needs incredibly talented, dedicated and near-faultless players. I don't think Pep would be Emirates Marketing Project'ing everything with Bissouma, Johnson and Maddison (again NOT knocking them, all really good players but not the elite of elite)...I think one or two world class signings in key positions would be enough. The defence looks overall great. I think we agree on the two areas where we really, really need world class (FWIW I think if we got those players, our wide options would be fine)...

We're not signing world class players, if you think that we are attractive for that type of player then you are delusional. The only way we are getting a world class player is if we buy them before they are at that level and develop them. We've done that very well up until the last few years. Hopefully we are starting to get back there and identifying players that have the potential to be world class (Bergvall) and getting them early.

 

[harr1984]

I don't really see anything OTT in the criticisms of Ange. It seems to me that people who don't toe the line be it on ENIC or managers get shouted down. It's pretty poor tbh. From normally sensible posters too.

For example, I haven't said Ange needs to win trophies but rather that he does need to challenge for top 4 as a minimum this season. I have been a Spurs fan over for 44 years this year, and I think I'm a fairly sensible and grounded fan but I know how this will go. People keep mentioning Arteta at Arsenal as an example of patience paying off, it used to be Ferguson at Utd. These examples are so rare. Much more common is that the second season is crucial to a manager surviving long term. Either they start effectively implementing their plan as happened with BMJ, Harry and Poch; or they fail to do so and get sacked like AVB, Conte and Ramos. At the moment Ange is hovering in that second group. We know the history, he will be gone by Christmas if he doesn't turn this form around. So people can grind their teeth and stamp their feet about him getting a full season. He won't. And neither should he. This is a competitive football club not a charity.

He started well and then got into a rut that he is struggling to pull us out of. It's been since last November! People talk about small margins have gone against us in recent games. That's all there is in the Premier league, in many games, small margins! And if you don't turn them in your favour you don't survive.

The club have backed him, he hasn't made wholesale changes to personnel, in the close season (unlike Arteta had to in his second season), so he really needs to turn this around. There is no where to hide. He knows this which is why he is becoming prickly in post match interviews.

You've been one of his biggest sceptics Deano, but with respect you can't then try and row back by saying it's ok that results aren't going our way because we never win anything. Where's the ambition to change that? We came so close before with Poch, we had a fabulous team under Harry that should have won things so why shouldn't fans remain optimistic about winning things again no matter how unlikely. What's the point in being a fan otherwise?

So, and this is not aimed at you, if people come on a forum to discuss Spurs they should be willing to engage with others who hold a different opinion otherwise stay away.

Edit: just to add, people saying he should be given a season even if he can't turn it around by Christmas -I don't understand why? He has no credit in the bank, he has no pedigree in this league; he's just a bloke we took a risk on and at the moment it looks like it's not paying off. But I will gladly eat humble pie if I am wrong.

Good post Rob to counter the argument.

I would say in regards to the small margins, yes it often is the small margins but over the course of the season you find that balance of luck flips your way as much as it goes against you. For example under Jose we were killing it at one point, getting the points but doing so whilst not really being better than the opposition by much if at all and many said it wouldn't last - and it didn't. It works both ways. And I'd say majority of the time a manager is really in trouble is when the players aren't playing for him and not buying into the system. We are in a results business no doubt, but we have battered one team, and for me purely on the balance of play not deserved to lose any other game. But yes there should be question marks about what we are doing at both ends of the pitch, improvements need to be made.

In regards to time, why does Ange have to challenge top 4 or achieve it this season? I see this said all the time, but if for once we as a club are looking long term why is that the requirement over properly implementing everything from top to bottom and for the time being it gets us where it gets us? We've challenged top 4 many times, we've achieved top 4 many times. And where has that got us? Yes some great nights in Europe and some additional cash but has actually got us the square root of naff all in quantifiable terms. We have also not achieved top 4 many times or challenged for it even, and low and behold we are still where we are - hovering around the top 6 which is about our fair level like it or not.

We have tried everything and still not achieved the promise land, so maybe just maybe giving a guy a longer period of time to achieve real success might just be what the doctor ordered. And of course allowing him more time doesn't automatically equate to success. But, giving him some space and time isn't going to mean the club falls off the face of the earth even if it doesn't work. But it will essentially be down to the fans patience, Levy alluded to learning from the past and thinking more long term after the Conte era and I genuinely believe he will give him more time than you think. But will the fans do the same? I won't hold my breath, and so the usual managerial conveyor belt will no doubt continue.....

 

[Bishop]

I’m not It for our fans to laud their achievements which are negligible i think it’s fair to reference why
I dong think there is a regularly consistently challenger in any league where the manager hasn’t had time

There are freaks like Lestah and Leverkusen last year but in reality you need time and money. We’re spending money but if we don’t give the guy time too we’re back to the drawing board. Our peers who have genuinely progressed have given the guy in charge time and backing. Arteta is the most relevant example as outside of pep and the petro $$$ they are the nearest we have to a peer

I'm down for backing Ange but he also needs to show that he deserves continual backing. That means adapting and adjusting to make his system work and I know I'm a broken record but this system with these attacks, it's just not going to work.

Agree with this TBH

I also don't get the "credit in the bank" argument, I find that largely arrogant to who we are and what we have failed to achieve in 60+ years TBH.

We ain't Liverpool with over a dozen league wins and half a dozen or so CL wins, we have flattered to deceive for as long as my memory back to maybe 86 remembers so if anyone needs credit in bank with managers and to give someone the time to change the club its actually us TBH.

It's a dangerous rhetoric that almost doomed to fail, new manager of higher ilk and reputation comes in and fails to hit his straps straight away or inbed his vision, what we saying? No credit in bank. Get rid....the merry-go-round continues.

As I say, things are not visibly that bad on or off the pitch that make me worry to my boots yet and like you I don't particularly see the same issues as last year, I certainly don't see a side AS defensively exposed, I do see a side that's slightly toothless in attack currently but we have been the better side in 3 out of 4 games IMO, the NLD was an equal split, its certainly not toys out the pram time yet.

We weren't the better side in attack against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Better in possession yes, nicer and neater football absolutely. But in terms of the actual attacking play that was quite poor. We had little penetration and I can't recall their keeper having to make any significant saves. Even the the xG shows them having the better actual chances.

 

[N22]

I'm down for backing Ange but he also needs to show that he deserves continual backing. That means adapting and adjusting to make his system work and I know I'm a broken record but this system with these attacks, it's just not going to work.

We weren't the better side in attack against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Better in possession yes, nicer and neater football absolutely. But in terms of the actual attacking play that was quite poor. We had little penetration and I can't recall their keeper having to make any significant saves. Even the the xG shows them having the better actual chances.

Exactly this.
We look good at times.
But that is, at least partly, because teams allow us posession in the knowledge that a) we will attempt the same attacking play every time and it can be nullified
b) we will leave ouselves exposed defensively and they will, eventually, get clear chances.

And c) We are vulnerable at set pieces.

 

[Yiddo]

If he is not given until the end of the season then i’m done.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I'm down for backing Ange but he also needs to show that he deserves continual backing. That means adapting and adjusting to make his system work and I know I'm a broken record but this system with these attacks, it's just not going to work.

We weren't the better side in attack against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Better in possession yes, nicer and neater football absolutely. But in terms of the actual attacking play that was quite poor. We had little penetration and I can't recall their keeper having to make any significant saves. Even the the xG shows them having the better actual chances.

The Xg was because they had an open goal to score from

Skews the numbers massively because it was a tap in

Out issue with the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game was our decision making with the final pass was horrendous

 

[Bishop]

The Xg was because they had an open goal to score from

Skews the numbers massively because it was a tap in

Out issue with the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game was our decision making with the final pass was horrendous

No it doesn't skrew the numbers. They had an open goal to score from. There's no reality that this did not happen. We didn't have an open goal attempt hence our poorer xG and our lack of goal attempts.

You can attempt to spin it however you want but the reality is the reality.

Edit:

I do however agree that poor decision making meant we didn't create the chances we could have. But we didn't, that's not good play or better attacking that's actually worse attacking play.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No it doesn't skrew the numbers. They had an open goal to score from. There's no reality that this did not happen. We didn't have an open goal attempt hence our poorer xG and our lack of goal attempts.

You can attempt to spin it however you want but the reality is the reality.

Edit:

I do however agree that poor decision making meant we didn't create the chances we could have. But we didn't, that's not good play or better attacking that's actually worse attacking play.

I’m not spinning it. One open goal will score higher on Xg than 10 good shots from range. That’s how it should work too. We haven’t created those chances really. It’s why our Xg numbers have been poor.
What is key is for that open goal chance they played really fast football

There is a really good analysis by Nathan form the extra inch on the amount of chances we had in that game to pass to a player in a better position. That’s what kills us

 

[Diamond Lights]

so many thoughts. Will try to be brief on where i stand:

1) We haven't improved over the Summer. Not really. Last year we had a midfield that did not work effectively, and wingers who could not get the job done. We went over the Summer and started the season and guess what, we have those same midfielders and wingers (with Odobert now added).

This is evidenced with Ange, whether he starts with Bentancur, or Sarr, or Bissouma, or Kulu, or Brennan, or Odobert, or Timo (lol) it's all just the same, all so interchangeable and absolutely no nailed on starter because we didn't improve the first XI

2) It may be "who we are mate", but it aint working. Klopp tore Geggenpress up when he moved to Liverpool and even cut his assistant who helped build that in Dortmund. Ange may be wedded to something but doesn't mean it will work and that it cannot be altered. His stubborness is causing issues

3) need to face facts that Son, Romero need to be dropped or rotated more starting this weekend

Overall i went into the season with high hopes but i realise now that was foolish. We really have roostered up another summer window. I keep saying the same thing, if you want to behave like Brighton, then charge Brighton ST prices. If you're gonna charge the highest prices in the league, then dont be surprised if the fanbase isn't happy with where things are going.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I have to admit, I don't really get the 'give him time' argument. If you're enjoying the football we've been playing for a little more than a year now and if you believe we're getting better then, by all means, he should be given time. If, on the other hand, you think it's boring and there's not much progress, I'm not sure giving time is the way to go. Very few people said Conte or Mourinho should have been given more time, for instance. More importantly, if giving someone time was a receipe for success, nobody would ever sack their manager.

My take on this is that Postecoglou's brand of football looks good when you consider the stats but it's not particularly fun to watch. Of course, it's better when you're winning but that was true for Mourinho too.

On a slightly different note, I think it's worth noting that this era of football isn't one of great managers. Apart from Guardiola and, to an extent, Ancelotti and Klopp, the list of managers who would guarantee you some degree of success is a very short one. Six years ago, Tuchel was considered one of the most promising young coaches in Europe. Now, his stock has fallen.

That's the reason why I'm not sure it's a matter of time but rather a matter of being the right man in the right place. Sometimes, there's a synergy between a squad, a manager and the signings a club make. There's plenty of examples of that - Pochettino being the obvious one - and then, no matter how hard they try to replicate these circumstances elsewhere, it never really works. They just hobble from one place to the next until everybody forgets about their earlier success.

I could be wrong but I think read somewhere that a maneger's average lifespan at a given club is roughly three years. If you need three years to click, it's already not looking good. Of course, sacking someone four games into a season is ridiculous but I'm more and more convinced that the time element is actually irrelevant. You could argue that the longer he stays, the better the chance that the planets will align but football players get bored, just like everybody else.

Given all that, I can't see Postecoglou pulling up any trees (that boat sailed after the Chelsea game) but a) I'm trying to enjoy the games, even if I do find his brand of football frustrating and b) I hope he proves me wrong.

 

[Bishop]

I’m not spinning it. One open goal will score higher on Xg than 10 good shots from range. That’s how it should work too. We haven’t created those chances really. It’s why our Xg numbers have been poor.
What is key is for that open goal chance they played really fast football

There is a really good analysis by Nathan form the extra inch on the amount of chances we had in that game to pass to a player in a better position. That’s what kills us

Exactly. Hence me saying we did NOT have the better attacking football versus Saudi Sportswashing Machine.

As I said we had more possession, and much neater football. I like that side of things, it's really positive, but I'm not going to pretend that means we did well with key area which is actually scoring or even attempting to score.

No we were very poor at that in the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game.

 

[N22]

I have to admit, I don't really get the 'give him time' argument. If you're enjoying the football we've been playing for a little more than a year now and if you believe we're getting better then, by all means, he should be given time. If, on the other hand, you think it's boring and there's not much progress, I'm not sure giving time is the way to go. Very few people said Conte or Mourinho should have been given more time, for instance. More importantly, if giving someone time was a receipe for success, nobody would ever sack their manager.

My take on this is that Postecoglou's brand of football looks good when you consider the stats but it's not particularly fun to watch. Of course, it's better when you're winning but that was true for Mourinho too.

On a slightly different note, I think it's worth noting that this era of football isn't one of great managers. Apart from Guardiola and, to an extent, Ancelotti and Klopp, the list of managers who would guarantee you some degree of success is a very short one. Six years ago, Tuchel was considered one of the most promising young coaches in Europe. Now, his stock has fallen.

That's the reason why I'm not sure it's a matter of time but rather a matter of being the right man in the right place. Sometimes, there's a synergy between a squad, a manager and the signings a club make. There's plenty of examples of that - Pochettino being the obvious one - and then, no matter how hard they try to replicate these circumstances elsewhere, it never really works. They just hobble from one place to the next until everybody forgets about their earlier success.

I could be wrong but I think read somewhere that a maneger's average lifespan at a given club is roughly three years. If you need three years to click, it's already not looking good. Of course, sacking someone four games into a season is ridiculous but I'm more and more convinced that the time element is actually irrelevant. You could argue that the longer he stays, the better the chance that the planets will align but football players get bored, just like everybody else.

Given all that, I can't see Postecoglou pulling up any trees (that boat sailed after the Chelsea game) but a) I'm trying to enjoy the games, even if I do find his brand of football frustrating and b) I hope he proves me wrong.

Good Post.

There's still a decent chance he may come good.....but it won't happen with this system.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Exactly. Hence me saying we did NOT have the better attacking football versus Saudi Sportswashing Machine.

As I said we had more possession, and much neater football. I like that side of things, it's really positive, but I'm not going to pretend that means we did well with key area which is actually scoring or even attempting to score.

No we were very poor at that in the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game.

I never said we did

 

[DeanoAustin]

I don't really see anything OTT in the criticisms of Ange. It seems to me that people who don't toe the line be it on ENIC or managers get shouted down. It's pretty poor tbh. From normally sensible posters too.

For example, I haven't said Ange needs to win trophies but rather that he does need to challenge for top 4 as a minimum this season. I have been a Spurs fan over for 44 years this year, and I think I'm a fairly sensible and grounded fan but I know how this will go. People keep mentioning Arteta at Arsenal as an example of patience paying off, it used to be Ferguson at Utd. These examples are so rare. Much more common is that the second season is crucial to a manager surviving long term. Either they start effectively implementing their plan as happened with BMJ, Harry and Poch; or they fail to do so and get sacked like AVB, Conte and Ramos. At the moment Ange is hovering in that second group. We know the history, he will be gone by Christmas if he doesn't turn this form around. So people can grind their teeth and stamp their feet about him getting a full season. He won't. And neither should he. This is a competitive football club not a charity.

He started well and then got into a rut that he is struggling to pull us out of. It's been since last November! People talk about small margins have gone against us in recent games. That's all there is in the Premier league, in many games, small margins! And if you don't turn them in your favour you don't survive.

The club have backed him, he hasn't made wholesale changes to personnel, in the close season (unlike Arteta had to in his second season), so he really needs to turn this around. There is no where to hide. He knows this which is why he is becoming prickly in post match interviews.

You've been one of his biggest sceptics Deano, but with respect you can't then try and row back by saying it's ok that results aren't going our way because we never win anything. Where's the ambition to change that? We came so close before with Poch, we had a fabulous team under Harry that should have won things so why shouldn't fans remain optimistic about winning things again no matter how unlikely. What's the point in being a fan otherwise?

So, and this is not aimed at you, if people come on a forum to discuss Spurs they should be willing to engage with others who hold a different opinion otherwise stay away.

Edit: just to add, people saying he should be given a season even if he can't turn it around by Christmas -I don't understand why? He has no credit in the bank, he has no pedigree in this league; he's just a bloke we took a risk on and at the moment it looks like it's not paying off. But I will gladly eat humble pie if I am wrong.

Good post Rob in fairness.

Sticking with a manager over a prolonged period "just because Fergie/Arteta" is madness. I agree. But big picture here - we finished 5th last season. For me, that was a bloody good finish especially given the changes implemented and the fact we lost Kane. This season - yeah results haven't been good but Ange is still in a position where he could have us challenging for top 4. However, like it or not, par for the course is probably 6th so I don't think 6th can ever be unacceptable to us and, now and again, teams have bad seasons so I'd give a bit of leeway. Therefore, I wouldn't hang Ange for finishing 7th or 8th this season. To me that wouldn't be a sackable offence and if it is we will forever be sacking managers after 2-3 years.

I absolutely do not agree with how Ange sets his team up defensively. I've been critical from pretty much day 1 on that and continue to be so. However, it's one aspect of the game and, who knows, I may be wrong. So, for me, I judge him against my expectations (which are 4th - 7th place) and if he meets that, I'm happy for him to continue despite misgivings about his tactics.

So I guess my position, confused as it is, is that I enjoy Ange's brand of football but have grave misgivings about it defensively. However, my expectations at the moment are that he finishes top 6 and, as long as he does that, I'm happy to stick with him. While the last 12 months are a bit of a worry and the trends worthy of analysis and criticism, I think it's justifiable to give him more time. Progress isn't always linear and we've gone through massive change.

On our position as a club - of course we should aspire to be much better but we cannot demand it to the extent that we sack a manager for not achieving those aspirations within a year or two. That's madness. We've no history of challenging every year and we don't have the resources to force our way into the title hunt. Calling for Ange to be sacked or suggesting that his position is under threat at this point, and many have over the last few days, is real knee jerk stuff in my opinion.

 

[Grays_1890]

Good post Rob in fairness.

Sticking with a manager over a prolonged period "just because Fergie/Arteta" is madness. I agree. But big picture here - we finished 5th last season. For me, that was a bloody good finish especially given the changes implemented and the fact we lost Kane. This season - yeah results haven't been good but Ange is still in a position where he could have us challenging for top 4. However, like it or not, par for the course is probably 6th so I don't think 6th can ever be unacceptable to us and, now and again, teams have bad seasons so I'd give a bit of leeway. Therefore, I wouldn't hang Ange for finishing 7th or 8th this season. To me that wouldn't be a sackable offence and if it is we will forever be sacking managers after 2-3 years.

I absolutely do not agree with how Ange sets his team up defensively. I've been critical from pretty much day 1 on that and continue to be so. However, it's one aspect of the game and, who knows, I may be wrong. So, for me, I judge him against my expectations (which are 4th - 7th place) and if he meets that, I'm happy for him to continue despite misgivings about his tactics.

So I guess my position, confused as it is, is that I enjoy Ange's brand of football but have grave misgivings about it defensively. However, my expectations at the moment are that he finishes top 6 and, as long as he does that, I'm happy to stick with him. While the last 12 months are a bit of a worry and the trends worthy of analysis and criticism, I think it's justifiable to give him more time. Progress isn't always linear and we've gone through massive change.

On our position as a club - of course we should aspire to be much better but we cannot demand it to the extent that we sack a manager for not achieving those aspirations within a year or two. That's madness. We've no history of challenging every year and we don't have the resources to force our way into the title hunt. Calling for Ange to be sacked or suggesting that his position is under threat at this point, and many have over the last few days, is real knee jerk stuff in my opinion.

Such a sensible post.

I think people could fact check the posts on here from us on what the overall expectations were for Ange and I clearly remember saying we were broken and a massive work in progress, the season before he took over was a mess, the squad was a mess and we ended up flogging Kane a week before the season started.

I remember clearly most said "its going to be worse before its better" but infact we had the good times before the squad was exposed half way through, so although back to front, the pains we are feeling later were no shock, we just thought they would be earlier. That happens, if I pick the trajectory of 12 managers in the PL who were a success I bet 80% or more have a tough period somewhere, the gradual and continued rise never exists, unless you are City, but we know why

I don't think it can be underestimated the open squad surgery needed here and also, how disjointed the club was before he joined. Yes we want better on the pitch, yes we should aspire for more but that more was not winning the league year one, two or three (regardless of what Ange says whilst building mentality) and for me I don't see the sense is sacking someone who has been a massive part of embedding what has become joined up thinking across the club for one.

Only Spurs and their fans would call for an overhaul on how the club looks on and off the pitch and want that jacked in after a year (before anyone cries I mean wider fans not on here)

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Such a sensible post.

I think people could fact check the posts on here from us on what the overall expectations were for Ange and I clearly remember saying we were broken and a massive work in progress, the season before he took over was a mess, the squad was a mess and we ended up flogging Kane a week before the season started.

I don't think it can be underestimated the open squad surgery needed here and also, how disjointed the club was before he joined. Yes we want better on the pitch, yes we should aspire for more but that more was not winning the league year one, two or three (regardless of what Ange says whilst building mentality) and for me I don't see the sense is sacking someone who has been a massive part of embedding what has become joined up thinking across the club for one.

Only Spurs and their fans would call for an overhaul on how the club looks on and off the pitch and want that jacked in after a year (before anyone cries I mean wider fans not on here)

What I don’t get are the random comments about other managers being great in certain situations which are just factually wrong

I’ve heard it repeated about Arteta
I’m now seeing that Poch made a great start to his second season
It’s just wrong and IMO these errors of opinions are what skew the reality
Below is Pochs first 4 games in season 2



Then his next 4 included a game against …. Qarabag



So where was this brilliant start he had ??