Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[thfcsteff]

Answers below mate...

For me Romero showed that a lot apart from the situation with the goal of course.

He is a great player overall, but for me, his passing out/carrying was too slow. He can be such a catalyst for us in these matches.

Sonny isn't that kind of leader imo. Maddison has the potential to be and imo tried, so does Bentancur perhaps.

Agreed on Sonny, Maddison won't ever be that and I think Bentancur is frankly not quite going to be of the material though I see the thought there

Kulusevski showed a bit of that imo.

Deki did bust a gut

The player we really could do with stepping up into a role like that is Bissouma. But I'm not holding my breath for that one.

Totally agree

They forced us wide, but also defended the wide areas well leaving Son and Johnson mostly ineffective. I can understand Ange not starting Odobert for this one, but we really missed his quality on the ball in tight areas.

Saka and Trossard did great work, but had we played out faster from the back/challenged with a few more long balls from Vic to mix up the approach, they were there for the taking. Maddison started dropping too deep in a match where it was unecessary IMO; if the defense/Bentancur are a little quicker then Maddison can stay further up and be the architect. Johnson and Son need the ball early as we know. I think Odobert's decision making is still developing; he nearly cost us when he was on FWIW.

I can also get not chucking Gray on in the DM role even as a sub, but Sarr there really didn't work on the ball. Both Gray and Bergvall imo does a bit of what you seem to be asking for, take responsibility on the ball to make something happen.

I'd have had Bergvall on for sure. Personally Gray too, again just for energy and momentum. Bergvall is brave and somewhat fearless to my eye, albeit still growing.

 

[Legohamster]

The reaction across the fan base since Sunday has surprised me. I know it's Woolwich and I know results-wise things haven't been great so far. But it's been 4 bloody games of this season and we've been a great watch in 3 of them IMO. Let's stick with it. Give Ange the season at a minimum. Bring in someone new and the season will likely be a write off anyway.

There is no upside to twisting again. Ange can still get us top 4 or top 6.

I don't think the reaction is on the first 4 games alone, it's the hang over from last season and results, then you add in the same mistakes/issues repeating themselves.

If you asked people to guess how Sunday would have played out before the game - lots of ball, not many clear cut chances and done from a set play would have featured highly in the responses.

I'd like to see gray / berg / dragon starting v Brentford.

 

[SteveAWOL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1836023268500770998

 

[Baleforce]

if he's gonna double down, someone is going to be pedantic and bring up his time at Melbourne Victory. where he did not, win a trophy in his second season

 

[Jordinho]

if he's gonna double down, someone is going to be pedantic and bring up his time at Melbourne Victory. where he did not, win a trophy in his second season

That's because he left early in the season to take over Australia and won with them instead.

 

[Bishop]

TBH though I think it would be more healthier if we concentrated on being Spurs and forging our own path rather than the continuous looking over the fence and comparisons to others. Unlikely any two clubs journeys are the same, I think we should just be us and see how it goes.

Ange has credit in the Spurs bank for other reasons that Arteta would at Arsenal purely because we are not them and we have no recent success to have the same expectations.

I read back on here from a year ago and to a man the sensible ones knew it was going to be a build and maybe steps back before forward, yeh we can be concerned but there are no levels of Nuno and Co here yet IMO. I give Ange credit in the bank because the entire structure has been changed from youth upwards to support his methods, nonsense to throw it in the bin after a year, would be Spurs to a tee doing that.

Dude I actually 100% agree. It's annoying when people keep comparing Ange tto Arteta, or Klopp or any of the other various coaches. It's such an irrelevant discussion to my mind.

We are Spurs and Ange is Ange, it's not going to be successful or unsuccessful just because it worked or didn't work at a different club with a different context. We can only look at our own circumstance and evaluate how it is progressing. For me tbh I'm do not finding it particularly surprising because I had some obvious concerns that I endlessly spoke about during the summer. So as always the sky isn't falling but frustratingly for me the form, performances and results have been all to predictable but I do think they were avoidable if we had correctly addressed the weaknesses in the summer imo.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Doesn't matter. People can say what they want. He did win them a cup, it gives him a bit more leeway from the owners to believe that yes he might be a winner. Ange has yet to put himself in that position. Hopefully he does this season.

It gives him leeway but he has to deliver something know after £600m and a number of years

 

[Bishop]

It gives him leeway but he has to deliver something know after £600m and a number of years

Tbh I don't care, I'm not an Arsenal fan.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Tbh I don't care, I'm not an Arsenal fan.

I’m not It for our fans to laud their achievements which are negligible i think it’s fair to reference why
I dong think there is a regularly consistently challenger in any league where the manager hasn’t had time

There are freaks like Lestah and Leverkusen last year but in reality you need time and money. We’re spending money but if we don’t give the guy time too we’re back to the drawing board. Our peers who have genuinely progressed have given the guy in charge time and backing. Arteta is the most relevant example as outside of pep and the petro $$$ they are the nearest we have to a peer

 

[Baleforce]

That's because he left early in the season to take over Australia and won with them instead.

yeah, but, technically...

 

[thfcsteff]

I’m not It for our fans to laud their achievements which are negligible i think it’s fair to reference why
I dong think there is a regularly consistently challenger in any league where the manager hasn’t had time

There are freaks like Lestah and Leverkusen last year but in reality you need time and money. We’re spending money but if we don’t give the guy time too we’re back to the drawing board. Our peers who have genuinely progressed have given the guy in charge time and backing. Arteta is the most relevant example as outside of pep and the petro $$$ they are the nearest we have to a peer

It feels to me like this summer is the vital window for us to find out if Ange is going to be backed or not. At the three year mark, Arteta was given Declan Rice. He was also backed on the keeper front, even though everyone thought he was bonkers. Ange has yet to be given a signing as important to him and his system as Rice is to Arsenal. I think Arteta also had Odegaard and Saka in place, which made his task a little easier. We spend money but there is always a keen eye on the potential business return. Not saying that is a bad thing, but since the debacle which saw us sign two big players for Poch and then sack him, we have been more prudent. Again I understand the parameters as to why that might be, but the truth is that Ange's style needs incredibly talented, dedicated and near-faultless players. I don't think Pep would be Emirates Marketing Project'ing everything with Bissouma, Johnson and Maddison (again NOT knocking them, all really good players but not the elite of elite)...I think one or two world class signings in key positions would be enough. The defence looks overall great. I think we agree on the two areas where we really, really need world class (FWIW I think if we got those players, our wide options would be fine)...

 

[Bullet]

I've come to realise that some of the posters on here, are just like Devon

 

[Robspur12]

I think questioning is fair but, like you say, some of the reactions have been well OTT.

What kind of gets on my nerves a bit is holding Ange or Levy to an impossible standard. We've been around for 142 years. We've won 17 trophies (between the league, FA Cup and League Cup and Europe). That's one trophy every 8 years which was about 1 in 7.4 years before ENIC arrived.

We've never been prolific, we've never been perennial title challengers. Of course, we should aspire to better but people need to be realistic about where we are, where we've come from and what we are competing against.

I don't really see anything OTT in the criticisms of Ange. It seems to me that people who don't toe the line be it on ENIC or managers get shouted down. It's pretty poor tbh. From normally sensible posters too.

For example, I haven't said Ange needs to win trophies but rather that he does need to challenge for top 4 as a minimum this season. I have been a Spurs fan over for 44 years this year, and I think I'm a fairly sensible and grounded fan but I know how this will go. People keep mentioning Arteta at Arsenal as an example of patience paying off, it used to be Ferguson at Utd. These examples are so rare. Much more common is that the second season is crucial to a manager surviving long term. Either they start effectively implementing their plan as happened with BMJ, Harry and Poch; or they fail to do so and get sacked like AVB, Conte and Ramos. At the moment Ange is hovering in that second group. We know the history, he will be gone by Christmas if he doesn't turn this form around. So people can grind their teeth and stamp their feet about him getting a full season. He won't. And neither should he. This is a competitive football club not a charity.

He started well and then got into a rut that he is struggling to pull us out of. It's been since last November! People talk about small margins have gone against us in recent games. That's all there is in the Premier league, in many games, small margins! And if you don't turn them in your favour you don't survive.

The club have backed him, he hasn't made wholesale changes to personnel, in the close season (unlike Arteta had to in his second season), so he really needs to turn this around. There is no where to hide. He knows this which is why he is becoming prickly in post match interviews.

You've been one of his biggest sceptics Deano, but with respect you can't then try and row back by saying it's ok that results aren't going our way because we never win anything. Where's the ambition to change that? We came so close before with Poch, we had a fabulous team under Harry that should have won things so why shouldn't fans remain optimistic about winning things again no matter how unlikely. What's the point in being a fan otherwise?

So, and this is not aimed at you, if people come on a forum to discuss Spurs they should be willing to engage with others who hold a different opinion otherwise stay away.

Edit: just to add, people saying he should be given a season even if he can't turn it around by Christmas -I don't understand why? He has no credit in the bank, he has no pedigree in this league; he's just a bloke we took a risk on and at the moment it looks like it's not paying off. But I will gladly eat humble pie if I am wrong.

 

[Mikey10]

I don't really see anything OTT in the criticisms of Ange. It seems to me that people who don't toe the line be it on ENIC or managers get shouted down. It's pretty poor tbh. From normally sensible posters too.

For example, I haven't said Ange needs to win trophies but rather that he does need to challenge for top 4 as a minimum this season. I have been a Spurs fan over for 44 years this year, and I think I'm a fairly sensible and grounded fan but I know how this will go. People keep mentioning Arteta at Arsenal as an example of patience paying off, it used to be Ferguson at Utd. These examples are so rare. Much more common is that the second season is crucial to a manager surviving long term. Either they start effectively implementing their plan as happened with BMJ, Harry and Poch; or they fail to do so and get sacked like AVB, Conte and Ramos. At the moment Ange is hovering in that second group. We know the history, he will be gone by Christmas if he doesn't turn this form around. So people can grind their teeth and stamp their feet about him getting a full season. He won't. And neither should he. This is a competitive football club not a charity.

He started well and then got into a rut that he is struggling to pull us out of. It's been since last November! People talk about small margins have gone against us in recent games. That's all there is in the Premier league, in many games, small margins! And if you don't turn them in your favour you don't survive.

The club have backed him, he hasn't made wholesale changes to personnel, in the close season (unlike Arteta had to in his second season), so he really needs to turn this around. There is no where to hide. He knows this which is why he is becoming prickly in post match interviews.

You've been one of his biggest sceptics Deano, but with respect you can't then try and row back by saying it's ok that results aren't going our way because we never win anything. Where's the ambition to change that? We came so close before with Poch, we had a fabulous team under Harry that should have won things so why shouldn't fans remain optimistic about winning things again no matter how unlikely. What's the point in being a fan otherwise?

So, and this is not aimed at you, if people come on a forum to discuss Spurs they should be willing to engage with others who hold a different opinion otherwise stay away.

Outstanding post.

 

[Raziel]

I don't really see anything OTT in the criticisms of Ange. It seems to me that people who don't toe the line be it on ENIC or managers get shouted down. It's pretty poor tbh. From normally sensible posters too.

For example, I haven't said Ange needs to win trophies but rather that he does need to challenge for top 4 as a minimum this season. I have been a Spurs fan over for 44 years this year, and I think I'm a fairly sensible and grounded fan but I know how this will go. People keep mentioning Arteta at Arsenal as an example of patience paying off, it used to be Ferguson at Utd. These examples are so rare. Much more common is that the second season is crucial to a manager surviving long term. Either they start effectively implementing their plan as happened with BMJ, Harry and Poch; or they fail to do so and get sacked like AVB, Conte and Ramos. At the moment Ange is hovering in that second group. We know the history, he will be gone by Christmas if he doesn't turn this form around. So people can grind their teeth and stamp their feet about him getting a full season. He won't. And neither should he. This is a competitive football club not a charity.

He started well and then got into a rut that he is struggling to pull us out of. It's been since last November! People talk about small margins have gone against us in recent games. That's all there is in the Premier league, in many games, small margins! And if you don't turn them in your favour you don't survive.

The club have backed him, he hasn't made wholesale changes to personnel, in the close season (unlike Arteta had to in his second season), so he really needs to turn this around. There is no where to hide. He knows this which is why he is becoming prickly in post match interviews.

You've been one of his biggest sceptics Deano, but with respect you can't then try and row back by saying it's ok that results aren't going our way because we never win anything. Where's the ambition to change that? We came so close before with Poch, we had a fabulous team under Harry that should have won things so why shouldn't fans remain optimistic about winning things again no matter how unlikely. What's the point in being a fan otherwise?

So, and this is not aimed at you, if people come on a forum to discuss Spurs they should be willing to engage with others who hold a different opinion otherwise stay away.

Re the OTT criticisms of Ange, that depends on where you look? here, reasonably balanced, on general social media? it's absolutely over the top, he's been found out, gone by December, etc.

We challenged for top 4 last season? (missed by 2 points), I suspect will do the same this season, we pretty much have with the exception of a couple of seasons in the last 16-18 years.

I do fundamentally agree with he is at risk (every manager is, 2nd season to your point is telling), I don't think the risk is what is was for Poch/Harry/others. Yes, he has been backed, in more ways than money, but the design of that backing (players like Wilson, Gray, Bergvall, etc.) indicate there is much more of a multi-year view on the timeline than in the past.

My personal view is there is a difference for me between the games we struggled in last season and the start of this season, stats and eye test say we deserved more than we have got this season, in 10 games if that doesn't correct, it doesn't really matter but it is context on the view that this run is since November.

 

[Grays_1890]

Re the OTT criticisms of Ange, that depends on where you look? here, reasonably balanced, on general social media? it's absolutely over the top, he's been found out, gone by December, etc.

We challenged for top 4 last season? (missed by 2 points), I suspect will do the same this season, we pretty much have with the exception of a couple of seasons in the last 16-18 years.

I do fundamentally agree with he is at risk (every manager is, 2nd season to your point is telling), I don't think the risk is what is was for Poch/Harry/others. Yes, he has been backed, in more ways than money, but the design of that backing (players like Wilson, Gray, Bergvall, etc.) indicate there is much more of a multi-year view on the timeline than in the past.

My personal view is there is a difference for me between the games we struggled in last season and the start of this season, stats and eye test say we deserved more than we have got this season, in 10 games if that doesn't correct, it doesn't really matter but it is context on the view that this run is since November.

Agree with this TBH

I also don't get the "credit in the bank" argument, I find that largely arrogant to who we are and what we have failed to achieve in 60+ years TBH.

We ain't Liverpool with over a dozen league wins and half a dozen or so CL wins, we have flattered to deceive for as long as my memory back to maybe 86 remembers so if anyone needs credit in bank with managers and to give someone the time to change the club its actually us TBH.

It's a dangerous rhetoric that almost doomed to fail, new manager of higher ilk and reputation comes in and fails to hit his straps straight away or inbed his vision, what we saying? No credit in bank. Get rid....the merry-go-round continues.

As I say, things are not visibly that bad on or off the pitch that make me worry to my boots yet and like you I don't particularly see the same issues as last year, I certainly don't see a side AS defensively exposed, I do see a side that's slightly toothless in attack currently but we have been the better side in 3 out of 4 games IMO, the NLD was an equal split, its certainly not toys out the pram time yet.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't really see anything OTT in the criticisms of Ange. It seems to me that people who don't toe the line be it on ENIC or managers get shouted down. It's pretty poor tbh. From normally sensible posters too.

For example, I haven't said Ange needs to win trophies but rather that he does need to challenge for top 4 as a minimum this season. I have been a Spurs fan over for 44 years this year, and I think I'm a fairly sensible and grounded fan but I know how this will go. People keep mentioning Arteta at Arsenal as an example of patience paying off, it used to be Ferguson at Utd. These examples are so rare. Much more common is that the second season is crucial to a manager surviving long term. Either they start effectively implementing their plan as happened with BMJ, Harry and Poch; or they fail to do so and get sacked like AVB, Conte and Ramos. At the moment Ange is hovering in that second group. We know the history, he will be gone by Christmas if he doesn't turn this form around. So people can grind their teeth and stamp their feet about him getting a full season. He won't. And neither should he. This is a competitive football club not a charity.

He started well and then got into a rut that he is struggling to pull us out of. It's been since last November! People talk about small margins have gone against us in recent games. That's all there is in the Premier league, in many games, small margins! And if you don't turn them in your favour you don't survive.

The club have backed him, he hasn't made wholesale changes to personnel, in the close season (unlike Arteta had to in his second season), so he really needs to turn this around. There is no where to hide. He knows this which is why he is becoming prickly in post match interviews.

You've been one of his biggest sceptics Deano, but with respect you can't then try and row back by saying it's ok that results aren't going our way because we never win anything. Where's the ambition to change that? We came so close before with Poch, we had a fabulous team under Harry that should have won things so why shouldn't fans remain optimistic about winning things again no matter how unlikely. What's the point in being a fan otherwise?

So, and this is not aimed at you, if people come on a forum to discuss Spurs they should be willing to engage with others who hold a different opinion otherwise stay away.

Edit: just to add, people saying he should be given a season even if he can't turn it around by Christmas -I don't understand why? He has no credit in the bank, he has no pedigree in this league; he's just a bloke we took a risk on and at the moment it looks like it's not paying off. But I will gladly eat humble pie if I am wrong.

Well worth looking at Poch second season start again
It’s not good
It’s actually awful
But he turned it around

And you really think we haven’t made wholesale changes to personnel???

 

[braineclipse]

I don't think the reaction is on the first 4 games alone, it's the hang over from last season and results, then you add in the same mistakes/issues repeating themselves.

If you asked people to guess how Sunday would have played out before the game - lots of ball, not many clear cut chances and done from a set play would have featured highly in the responses.

I'd like to see gray / berg / dragon starting v Brentford.

To some extent, yes. But also to some extent no imo.

Yes we conceded from a set piece. For the first time this season while mostly defending them well in this game and in games this season. Is that the same issue repeating itself, or is that just sometimes you concede from set pieces even if you've improved?

A big part of the critical narrative around us has been our weaknesses at defending against counter attacks and when our press gets played through. Against Arsenal that was barely an issue at all. Same issue repeating itself?

So far this season we've struggled with chance creation and somewhat with taking our chances. That was an issue at times in the second half of last season, but wasn't the persistent problem that led to our poor results, that was more the problems above.

Very small margins and we either beat or draw that game. Would the "same issues repeating themselves" argument be made then?

Particularly over a small sample size I think looking at performances rather than results is more helpful. Imo our performances have been rather good. Not great, but better than a lot of what we saw in the second half of last season.

Improve our chance creation even by a relatively small amount and these four games would probably have gone rather differently.

 

[markysimmo]

Even a total helm like this can see it

https://twitter.com/x/status/1836021462479626358

 

[Grays_1890]

Even a total helm like this can see it

https://twitter.com/x/status/1836021462479626358

I saw this and the extended clip and for once he was spot on. The other clip from someone else was the fact that fans are falling for a few lies around Ange which he is now having to defending himself on, which again was spot on.