Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Muttley]

Hahahaha! Almost every time Pep has changed things, and tried to be 'clever' by changing the way they play, they've fallen flat on their face! Almost every single time!

Nah, he's changed it every season and until now, kept winning the league. He went back to a target man number 9, he started utilising guys like Stones as a midfielder. When you look closely, he's tweaked things every season.

The reason why they are where they are is because of the age profile of the squad. It was perfect when they did the treble and they haven't churned quick or well enough.

 

[Kompakted]

On this point about us "not paying top wages". It is total gonads. We pay about the maximum we can pay under PL PSRs:
- For 2024/25 and 23/24 our wagebill was the 7th highest in the PL behind Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd and Aston Villa (there's barely anything between us and Villa)
- For 2022/23 we had the 6th highest wage bill and were actually a lot closer to Arsenal than to Aston Villa.
This is a key point as at 2022/23 we were actually on the edge of compliance with PSRs necessitating a "have to sell someone before we can buy someone" policy.
- Selling Kane, N'Dombele, and other high wage earners and bringing in a selection of younger lower earners was necessary not only to allow more future flexibility in the transfer market but to also deal with significant squad problems we've had in meeting home grown and club trained quotas.
There's plenty of analysis of how our wage bill got too bloated and our squad design under Mourinho and Conte deteriorated in respect of meeting home grown and club trained requirements. Ali Gold has done some articles and videos on it.

But we had to reduce our wage bill basically and buy teenagers who could become club trained prior to their 21st birthday. We left it to the point where this transfer policy is not even a Levy imposed thing now it was a necessity to meet the rules of the competitions we operate in.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

On this point about us "not paying top wages". It is total gonads. We pay about the maximum we can pay under PL PSRs:
- For 2024/25 and 23/24 our wagebill was the 7th highest in the PL behind Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd and Aston Villa (there's barely anything between us and Villa)
- For 2022/23 we had the 6th highest wage bill and were actually a lot closer to Arsenal than to Aston Villa.
This is a key point as at 2022/23 we were actually on the edge of compliance with PSRs necessitating a "have to sell someone before we can buy someone" policy.
- Selling Kane, N'Dombele, and other high wage earners and bringing in a selection of younger lower earners was necessary not only to allow more future flexibility in the transfer market but to also deal with significant squad problems we've had in meeting home grown and club trained quotas.
There's plenty of analysis of how our wage bill got too bloated and our squad design under Mourinho and Conte deteriorated in respect of meeting home grown and club trained requirements. Ali Gold has done some articles and videos on it.

But we had to reduce our wage bill basically and buy teenagers who could become club trained prior to their 21st birthday. We left it to the point where this transfer policy is not even a Levy imposed thing now it was a necessity to meet the rules of the competitions we operate in.

I agree with your logic but where are you getting your numbers from?

 

[billyiddo]

Wage to turnover numbers are low atm cos we've gutted the squad of higher earning deadwood while our revenue continues to grow.

 

[Kompakted]

Wage to turnover numbers are low atm cos we've gutted the squad of higher earning deadwood while our revenue continues to grow.

Yes and this was a deliberate exercise undertaken over the last few years overseen initially by Paratici.

 

[Kompakted]

I agree with your logic but where are you getting your numbers from?

Various sources. Swiss Ramble is a great source for club finance comparisons and explanations. Ali Gold is probably the best journalist at writing and talking about our squad situation in relation to both PSR rules and home grown and club trained quotas. Mainstream media publish wage bill league tables for each season.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Various sources. Swiss Ramble is a great source for club finance comparisons and explanations. Ali Gold is probably the best journalist at writing and talking about our squad situation in relation to both PSR rules and home grown and club trained quotas. Mainstream media publish wage bill league tables for each season.

Swiss ramble is the go to along with Kieron McKenna for me
The mainstream media are really bad at anything like that imo
And when I’ve seen wages we were 5th last accounts but I haven’t looked for a few months
Either way I’m fully in agreement that we pay plenty for what we get

 

[DeanoAustin]

On this point about us "not paying top wages". It is total gonads. We pay about the maximum we can pay under PL PSRs:
- For 2024/25 and 23/24 our wagebill was the 7th highest in the PL behind Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd and Aston Villa (there's barely anything between us and Villa)
- For 2022/23 we had the 6th highest wage bill and were actually a lot closer to Arsenal than to Aston Villa.
This is a key point as at 2022/23 we were actually on the edge of compliance with PSRs necessitating a "have to sell someone before we can buy someone" policy.
- Selling Kane, N'Dombele, and other high wage earners and bringing in a selection of younger lower earners was necessary not only to allow more future flexibility in the transfer market but to also deal with significant squad problems we've had in meeting home grown and club trained quotas.
There's plenty of analysis of how our wage bill got too bloated and our squad design under Mourinho and Conte deteriorated in respect of meeting home grown and club trained requirements. Ali Gold has done some articles and videos on it.

But we had to reduce our wage bill basically and buy teenagers who could become club trained prior to their 21st birthday. We left it to the point where this transfer policy is not even a Levy imposed thing now it was a necessity to meet the rules of the competitions we operate in.

Be interesting for someone to look through the accounts and explain why we're so close to the threshold. I expect the stadium debt is something we have to cope with that other clubs don't. But the point about us not paying top wages isn't total gonads. It's very relevant if you're asking why we don't attract top players.

You look at the percentage of revenue that we spend on wages. It is the lowest in the league and has been for many, many years bar one I think. So we spend less of our revenue on wages than any other club in percentage terms. When you factor in that clubs like Liverpool, United and City always generate more revenue than us in absolute terms and spend a higher % of it on wages than us (and Woolwich and Chelsea usually do the same), we're lagging a long way behind.

If we have little headroom from a PSR point of view, that means that there is some sort of expense that we have that others don't which is restricting our ability to pay higher wages.

 

[Mikey10]

I have accepted that we are where we are and I go now to be entertained.

Good luck with that.

Hopefully you’re into Squid Game.

 

[Muttley]

Be interesting for someone to look through the accounts and explain why we're so close to the threshold. I expect the stadium debt is something we have to cope with that other clubs don't. But the point about us not paying top wages isn't total gonads. It's very relevant if you're asking why we don't attract top players.

You look at the percentage of revenue that we spend on wages. It is the lowest in the league and has been for many, many years bar one I think. So we spend less of our revenue on wages than any other club in percentage terms. When you factor in that clubs like Liverpool, United and City always generate more revenue than us in absolute terms and spend a higher % of it on wages than us (and Woolwich and Chelsea usually do the same), we're lagging a long way behind.

If we have little headroom from a PSR point of view, that means that there is some sort of expense that we have that others don't which is restricting our ability to pay higher wages.

I think people forget that wage levels can also be about phases. We've recently removed Kane, Ndombele, Gio, Dier, Hugo etc and it's very natural for our wage bill to be artificially lower before it grows again.

I can only compliment the club on this cleansing process. It leaves them space to go to in the next phase.

 

[Raziel]

Exactly what we should have done with kane and Eriksen.

And the same people that complain about club having no football DNA would start the "you lack ambition for selling good player" (and that is fact, heard it enough in the Carrick, Berbatov, etc years)

 

[Kompakted]

Be interesting for someone to look through the accounts and explain why we're so close to the threshold. I expect the stadium debt is something we have to cope with that other clubs don't. But the point about us not paying top wages isn't total gonads. It's very relevant if you're asking why we don't attract top players.

You look at the percentage of revenue that we spend on wages. It is the lowest in the league and has been for many, many years bar one I think. So we spend less of our revenue on wages than any other club in percentage terms. When you factor in that clubs like Liverpool, United and City always generate more revenue than us in absolute terms and spend a higher % of it on wages than us (and Woolwich and Chelsea usually do the same), we're lagging a long way behind.

If we have little headroom from a PSR point of view, that means that there is some sort of expense that we have that others don't which is restricting our ability to pay higher wages.

We used to have little headroom in respect of PSR now we have quite a lot of headroom. The stadium: when the stadium opened the purse strings on our wage structure were really loosened and we signed Kane and Son on new huge deals and sighed NDombele on over £200K etc. But we had about a year and a half of operating the stadium with zero match day or concert revenue during Covid and we've only just recovered financially from that (i.e.its only now that the stadium is starting to give us real headroom with its revenue generating potential)

As to other point we are comparable in terms of wages with any other comparable club. The fact we were able to resign Bale shows we are capable and willing to pay top wages where players are worth it.

Any club will have their top value they put on a player in terms of overall package.

People will say Levy should just pay the money for any player the head coach identifies ignoring that Pep wanted Harry Kane and the most financially doped club in the world wasn't willing to pay the money it would take - an example very close to home which fans just choose to ignore when claiming Levy and our board are somehow unique in the way they operate in the market.

 

[DeanoAustin]

We used to have little headroom in respect of PSR now we have quite a lot of headroom. The stadium: when the stadium opened the purse strings on our wage structure were really loosened and we signed Kane and Son on new huge deals and sighed NDombele on over £200K etc. But we had about a year and a half of operating the stadium with zero match day or concert revenue during Covid and we've only just recovered financially from that (i.e.its only now that the stadium is starting to give us real headroom with its revenue generating potential)

That doesn't explain why we pay the lowest percentage of our revenue in wages and are still exposed from a PSR perspective. Even with Kane, Son and Ndombele on huge money, we paid less of our revenue, percentage-wise, out in wages than any other club in the league consistently.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Good luck with that.

Hopefully you’re into Squid Game.

First series was great
Haven’t seen the second yet

 

[Robspur12]

But you think Ange is doing a poor job right? So what would a good job look like?

I'm pretty sure if he corrected all the mistakes that you point out that he is making in his approach we'd be sitting quite further up the table than we are - so if he was doing a good job and had us around the EL places and threatening top 4, where would the argument come from then that the club isn't doing enough?

I think both positions can exist concurrently , i.e that Ange is underachieving and at the same time the squad doesn’t have enough depth in some areas. CBs and Striker I think we are very short in. I hope Solanke doesn’t suffer a major injury for example because I’m not sure we have the cover. But for me the latter point is about properly competing for trophies not about being a top 6 team. We have the quality if we were being managed cleverly to be that.

 

[Raziel]

Be interesting for someone to look through the accounts and explain why we're so close to the threshold. I expect the stadium debt is something we have to cope with that other clubs don't. But the point about us not paying top wages isn't total gonads. It's very relevant if you're asking why we don't attract top players.

You look at the percentage of revenue that we spend on wages. It is the lowest in the league and has been for many, many years bar one I think. So we spend less of our revenue on wages than any other club in percentage terms. When you factor in that clubs like Liverpool, United and City always generate more revenue than us in absolute terms and spend a higher % of it on wages than us (and Woolwich and Chelsea usually do the same), we're lagging a long way behind.

If we have little headroom from a PSR point of view, that means that there is some sort of expense that we have that others don't which is restricting our ability to pay higher wages.

We are in most cases in a better place than others in terms of headroom for PSR
But said it before, because you can spend money (rules wise), doesn't mean you have the money to spend.

So much of this thread has got back to rehash without acknowledgement of reality
- Club hasn't backed manager, club spent £280M in less than 18 months
- Club hasn't improved first team with this manager, Vic, Udogie, VDV, Gray, Maddison, Johnson, Solanke all first 11
- Club didn't buy or pay more? With what money, the financials are available, what cash is the club sitting on that they haven't used?
- No good manager will come here, really, you offer Iriola 8X his current salary in a 3 year contract and he will say no?
- The manager is part of the team that made decisions about building now vs future, some of those choices are on him as well
- Lots of fun conversations about Levy using others as shield, fact is Levy has been the shield for Lewis/ENIC for the full.time, his personal wealth is nowhere near what is needed to improve Spurs
- Fans are against owners not manager, I was there for Nuno, if we get smashed by Wolves or Saudi Sportswashing Machine, nobody will be fudging singing Ange's name

There are multiple things at play here, and all can be part /true at same time
- Club operates in a self funded model, the revenue stream has/continues to improve and that allows us to spend more, enough that we will always be ahead of all but 5 or so clubs in league. You can discuss if this will ever get us success but our power to change it is limited (no you can't fire Levy or force a sale)
- Injuries have affected how the squad/window is perceived, Wilson, VDV, Richi, being fit would have made a difference.
- The manager is underperforming, the club hasn't had this low a position, losses or points at this point of season since the Ramos season, ~16 years ago. Results for full calendar year have been bad.

I give all.managers a chance, I was more willing than most with Nuno, but I don't see Anger surviving the month of January, his inability to adjust, grind through this period will probably cost him.

What will be interesting is the actions (not people's biases) the club takes from here
- Will the club give Ange until end of season? If we do, its a change in policy
- Will club back Ange in Jan window? To what extent, how quickly and what type of players?
- If the club does fire him, is there someone lined up? Big reflection on Munn/Lange

Its wait and see mode now

 

[Robspur12]

Players out, who played for Ange at least once and again, age and games played in senior football
Skipp 156 games at 23
Royal 231 games at 25
Rodon 170 games at 26
Lo Celso 313 games at 28
Dier 432 games at 30
Sessegnon 206 games at 24
NDombele 301 games at 26
Perisic 611 games at 35
Tanganga 68 games at 25
Hojbjerg - loan technically 434 games at 28
2922 games total and and average of 292 games per player Average age is 27

I may be missing the point mate, apologies if so, but who would we have kept out of that lot who would have been useful to us? Hojbjerg and Royal maybe? Midfield doesn’t seem to be the problem, so Royal is the one we should have kept. Dier? He would not turn down Bayern I’m sure.

 

[billyiddo]

I think both positions can exist concurrently , i.e that Ange is underachieving and at the same time the squad doesn’t have enough depth in some areas. CBs and Striker I think we are very short in. I hope Solanke doesn’t suffer a major injury for example because I’m not sure we have the cover. But for me the latter point is about properly competing for trophies not about being a top 6 team. We have the quality if we were being managed cleverly to be that.

Agreed - but I think that it's natural to be short in some areas at this point, most/all clubs in the league will be short in a couple of areas - City don't have a striker to replace Haaland or an adequate back up for Rodri for example - squads very rarely have all bases covered and we're well known to be in the middle of a rebuild so of course we're going to be short. In terms of CF having Richarlson and then Lankshere isn't actually that bad on paper. In terms of being ready to challenge properly we are still a couple of steps away from thinking about that - I think before you can be there you first need to land on a manager that works and takes you forward - once the right manager is in place you then need to do what they require to get them there (eg we need a manager to do what Poch done up until 16/17 season and then give him what is needed to grow from there)

 

[Robspur12]

And the same people that complain about club having no football DNA would start the "you lack ambition for selling good player" (and that is fact, heard it enough in the Carrick, Berbatov, etc years)

The issue is not selling the quality player per se (not for me anyway ), but failing to have identified and then bought a quality replacement when it was clear what was going to happen. It happened with Carrick, Berba, Modric and latterly Kane. I think that is a legit gripe with ENIC.

 

[glasgowspur]

We are in most cases in a better place than others in terms of headroom for PSR
But said it before, because you can spend money (rules wise), doesn't mean you have the money to spend.

So much of this thread has got back to rehash without acknowledgement of reality
- Club hasn't backed manager, club spent £280M in less than 18 months
- Club hasn't improved first team with this manager, Vic, Udogie, VDV, Gray, Maddison, Johnson, Solanke all first 11
- Club didn't buy or pay more? With what money, the financials are available, what cash is the club sitting on that they haven't used?
- No good manager will come here, really, you offer Iriola 8X his current salary in a 3 year contract and he will say no?
- The manager is part of the team that made decisions about building now vs future, some of those choices are on him as well
- Lots of fun conversations about Levy using others as shield, fact is Levy has been the shield for Lewis/ENIC for the full.time, his personal wealth is nowhere near what is needed to improve Spurs
- Fans are against owners not manager, I was there for Nuno, if we get smashed by Wolves or Saudi Sportswashing Machine, nobody will be fudging singing Ange's name

There are multiple things at play here, and all can be part /true at same time
- Club operates in a self funded model, the revenue stream has/continues to improve and that allows us to spend more, enough that we will always be ahead of all but 5 or so clubs in league. You can discuss if this will ever get us success but our power to change it is limited (no you can't fire Levy or force a sale)
- Injuries have affected how the squad/window is perceived, Wilson, VDV, Richi, being fit would have made a difference.
- The manager is underperforming, the club hasn't had this low a position, losses or points at this point of season since the Ramos season, ~16 years ago. Results for full calendar year have been bad.

I give all.managers a chance, I was more willing than most with Nuno, but I don't see Anger surviving the month of January, his inability to adjust, grind through this period will probably cost him.

What will be interesting is the actions (not people's biases) the club takes from here
- Will the club give Ange until end of season? If we do, its a change in policy
- Will club back Ange in Jan window? To what extent, how quickly and what type of players?
- If the club does fire him, is there someone lined up? Big reflection on Munn/Lange

Its wait and see mode now

I was right behind nuno as well, even though I suspected it would never work.
Not because he isn't a good manager but because a large section of our support felt he wasn't good enough and couldn't wait to show it.
It's the same people who will turn not only ange but whoever replaces him as soon as it looks a bit wobbly, even if it's the same manager they were screaming for 12 months ago.