***Tottenham Hotspur vs. Manchester United OMT***

[Robspur12]

Let's see what happens as the season progresses. Dier was off form at the start of the season and Wanyama rightly got that place. Then Dier had to play CB for quite a while as Alderweireld got injured. I can understand not bringing Dier right back into midfield against United with him not having played there for quite some time.

We miss Lamela quite a lot. Some of us have been praising him for years (literally) for some of the things he brings to the side. Things Son definitely doesn't bring. Things that Alli and Eriksen rarely bring. Things that Sissoko couldn't possibly dream of bringing.

I agree it would be useful to combine creativity with the destroyer wanyama. I don't think Winks is that answer yet though and dier has been very inconsistent this season; to be expected with a young player.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I'm not claiming we were any good today. Someone like you who mostly reflects on the game with perception must surely have notice by now that our greatest we have a real problem when teams set out to stop us at all costs like United did today?

We struggle when teams decide to go all out in terms of stopping us, I'll happily concede that. I don't think that's what United did,though - they also pretty much blitzed us in terms of chances created, forward passes, movement in the final third....they just outplayed us everywhere, not only when we got into their defensive setup. And they di all this while playing (imo) at half-speed, still unsure about their positions and roles, feeling out their responsibilities in the transition when defence turns to attack.

If we class that as teams setting out to 'stop us at all costs', it's counter-productive, because that isn't what it is. It is simply teams outperforming us man-for-man, everywhere, while only at half-pace themselves...and that doesn't have such an easy tactical answer.

 

[Pirate55]

Turgid anyone?

Torpid

 

[braineclipse]

I'm not claiming we were any good today. Someone like you who mostly reflects on the game with perception must surely have notice by now that our greatest we have a real problem when teams set out to stop us at all costs like United did today?
Point is United were not only at us far more intensively around the box, they were also choking us out in the centre of the park. When you are surrounded by two/three players all the time the first thing you need to do is ensure you do not lose possession. So you pass it to the nearest player to avoid being disposessed. For me we were poor mainly because we could not cope with the intensity of their commitment all over the park.

Absolutely, 100% completely disagree.

The slow, obvious low risk obvious pass is what the pressing team expects and wants. Someone good enough on the ball on the other hand can either through passing or dribbling (or a combination of the two) play their way through a level of pressure and expose the space the pressing team has left behind by pushing that many players forward. Midfielders who either let themselves get bypassed by the run of play or only plays the slow safe pass makes it a hell of a lot easier to press and makes it more likely to succeed.

It's a complex skill, but it's one we've seen players like Modric and Carrick execute with brilliance for us in the past. It's one we've seen players like Huddlestone and Bentaleb execute at a lower level, but still very well for us. It's one Wanyama doesn't even try and it makes us predictable and easier to play against.

How do you win the game of pressing and possession if your preferred move is the move the opponent expects you to play and wants you to play?

 

[El Guepardo]

Given up on this season. We'll finish seventh and then lose Lloris, plus either Alli or Kane, maybe Alderweireld too. I don't know whether this malaise has come from, that seems to be an ever present these days. There is no cohesion, no drive and it looks like we'll struggle to score unless opponents simply give us the game.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I still blame the FA. Should have nailed their colours to the mast straight away and told him in the February, sorry Harry, Roy's got the gig, forget England, instead they dragged out, led him along believing he had a chance, and he (not surprisingly) took his eye off the Tottenham ball.

The whole season was one giant 'F*ck you!' to us from the football gods, though. The FA f*cked us over by flirting with him over the England job, yeah, but that whole thing started because of Terry racially abusing Ferdinand and having his captaincy stripped by the FA, which led to Cappello resigning, which kickstarted the whole thing. Then our collapse coincided with Harry's England flirtations, and ultimately our late recovery got us into 4th place...only for Chelsea to go out and win the CL because of Bayern throwing away a lead late on after putting on a dominant performance for 85-odd minutes. Thus, we became the only team to finish 4th and not get CL in the history of the Premier League. This, in a season where we already had the near-tragedy of the Muamba incident occur at the Lane.

It was just a surreal sequence of morale-destroying events, one after the other. The way the Harry era ended was indescribably sad and painful from that perspective - a brilliant, beautiful team, ripped apart by cruel fate.

 

[Robspur12]

Poch finished 3rd with 70 points in a poor season where everyone of note bar us and Leicester underperformed. AVB finished 5th with 72 points in a far more competitive season at the top end. How's that for the relative worth of finishes? It's a pet peeve of mine.

I don't know if Poch can produce better than Harry and AVB with better players across the board - we'll have to see if he can. But let's not pretend as if he's been handicapped enormously in comparison to those two. Harry had Modric, Bale, VdV and King as his world-class players - AVB had just Bale, with Lloris coming into it as the season progressed. Poch (I'd argue) has at least Toby and Lloris, and very possibly Dembele when he's on form (I think he has a ridiculous success rate in terms of dribbles completed and possession won, the highest in Europe iirc). Plus, he probably has the same squad level as AVB and Harry did. He might well be at a disadvantage compared to those two, but it isn't as overwhelmingly large as his more ardent supporters like to claim it is, imo.

I bring up this comparison because I feel it's still valid in terms of the effects those managers had on breaking our crippling mental blocks - each of them took a large step forward in their own unique ways. Poch has also done so, but in a far smaller manner, and the unbelievable collapse at the end of last season still (imo) calls even that into question. And as for United 'firing', they were crap, and have been crap the whole goddamn season. If this is what a 'firing' United side looks like, I'm sorry, but there are many, many teams that they will struggle against.

Not against us, though. Not when there's something at stake. There, they'll easily win these crunch games without breaking a sweat, while we withdraw into our shells and look every inch the submissive, eternal bridesmaids. *That* is what I feel Poch has to overcome, which he has not yet done to any significant degree - his more ardent supporters claim he has, and my counter-claim is that he really, really hasn't.

Poch finished 3rd with 70 points in a poor season where everyone of note bar us and Leicester underperformed. AVB finished 5th with 72 points in a far more competitive season at the top end. How's that for the relative worth of finishes? It's a pet peeve of mine.

I don't know if Poch can produce better than Harry and AVB with better players across the board - we'll have to see if he can. But let's not pretend as if he's been handicapped enormously in comparison to those two. Harry had Modric, Bale, VdV and King as his world-class players - AVB had just Bale, with Lloris coming into it as the season progressed. Poch (I'd argue) has at least Toby and Lloris, and very possibly Dembele when he's on form (I think he has a ridiculous success rate in terms of dribbles completed and possession won, the highest in Europe iirc). Plus, he probably has the same squad level as AVB and Harry did. He might well be at a disadvantage compared to those two, but it isn't as overwhelmingly large as his more ardent supporters like to claim it is, imo.

I bring up this comparison because I feel it's still valid in terms of the effects those managers had on breaking our crippling mental blocks - each of them took a large step forward in their own unique ways. Poch has also done so, but in a far smaller manner, and the unbelievable collapse at the end of last season still (imo) calls even that into question. And as for United 'firing', they were crap, and have been crap the whole goddamn season. If this is what a 'firing' United side looks like, I'm sorry, but there are many, many teams that they will struggle against.

Not against us, though. Not when there's something at stake. There, they'll easily win these crunch games without breaking a sweat, while we withdraw into our shells and look every inch the submissive, eternal bridesmaids. *That* is what I feel Poch has to overcome, which he has not yet done to any significant degree - his more ardent supporters claim he has, and my counter-claim is that he really, really hasn't.

Facts are facts Dubai it is a moot point to say it was a more or less competitive season. Arsenal were better last season. Chelsea still had a great team capable of beating any one and the smaller clubs were buoyed by having more money.
You say AVB just had Bale. That would be the Bale who won him how many points on his own? one of the best players in the world? Who enabled him to mask the weaknesses in his system, if only Poch had such a luxury available to him. As I say we saw what happened when we took away his world class player and what he achieved with 100million to spend. The comparison is pointless because without Bale he did not over come our supposed Spursiness quite the opposite.

 

[Pirate55]

They also played football a lot better today.

That's because they have better players. We seem to have lost the team ethic that took us so far last year and equalised our poorer man for man comparison. We can't seem to handle any pressure at all.

 

[Hemant]

One thing's for sure, we had better not play like that in the reverse fixture in May. Because if we bow out at the lane with a performace similar to that it will be embarassing

And there will be steam coming out of my Glory Glory account!

What do you consider a good cross?

For me, any pass that doesn't end up with one of our players receiving the ball is a poor one.

The worse thing about crossing from out there is that even if our forward gets to them, they're really difficult to score from.

It's just a complete lack of brains to play in such a low return manner like that - especially against a Mourinho side that you just know is desperate to counter.

for me a cross is a pass from a wide position.
Was Hoddle crossing or passing when he was putting the ball on the head of a shortie like Crooks from the touch line?

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Dier, yeah, he's had a stop-start season. I hope he gets back in, just to see if we gain more fluidity when he's there as opposed to when Wanyama plays in the DM position - however, my point was more that we had a more than adequate backup for him heading into this season. Ditto Lamela - although we miss him, I don't think Son is such a step down when compared to Erik. I will concede, though, that Lamela seems to be the only player in the entire side who can play passes through the opposition's defense - Eriksen, Alli, Son, none of them have managed it at all consistently so far.

Adequate backup is a fair description of Wanyama. I have my fairly strong preferences for player types in central/deep midfield though.

I don't think Son is a such a step down compared to Lamela in terms of overall quality, but they bring very different types of quality to the team. And when the other 5 of our front 6 all like the extra touch (for various reasons) the only player who actually ups our tempo is missed all the more. When our two deep midfielders severely lack creativity the attacking midfielder who excels at coming a bit deeper and being creative in our buildup play is not effectively replaced by someone who excels at running at defenders in the final third.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Facts are facts Dubai it is a moot point to say it was a more or less competitive season. Arsenal were better last season. Chelsea still had a great team capable of beating any one and the smaller clubs were buoyed by having more money.

Facts are facts - interpreting them is the issue. We finished 3rd, with 70 points. That is a fact. We finished 5th, with 72 points. That is also a fact. 72 > 70. That is a fact. 3rd > 5th. That is also a fact. Now, what do you make of all these facts? There's the rub. And as much as I don't like people underrating managers' tenures here (as evidenced by my lonely crusade in favour of AVB), I also don't like people overstating the impact of what a manager's done - that's the sort of territory that I feel some of Poch's more committed defenders sometimes stray into (completely innocently, of course - they honestly, earnestly believe Poch has done a great job, an opinion you perhaps share).

You say he just had Bale. That would be the Bale who won him how many points on his own? one of the best players in the world? As I say we saw what happened when we took away his world class player and what he achieved with 100million to spend. The comparison is pointless because without Bale he did not over come our supposed Spursiness.

The funny thing is, with his 100 million, I think (iirc) we were still on course to beat the points total from 2012-2013 all the way up until December, even as we were being regularly hammered. He was winning the smaller games, while horrifically losing the bigger ones.

He overcame our Spursiness in 2012-2013, using his world-class player in Bale - I'll put it that way. He built Bale into the player he became in 2012-2013, taking him away from the wing and sticking him in the middle + making him bulk up. Has Poch achieved the same with his world-class players in Toby, Lloris and (possibly) Dembele? I'd argue he didn't, because that late collapse last season put paid to any notion of consistency arising *solely* because of the WC players at a manager's disposal.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Adequate backup is a fair description of Wanyama. I have my fairly strong preferences for player types in central/deep midfield though.

So do I - personally, I've always liked the 'destroyer/auxiliary CB' + 'deep-lying playmaker/distributor' combination, and I feel like we have a bit of an unusual system going with our reliance on Dembele when it comes to taking the ball forward from the deeper midfield positions - usually that's achieved with a pass that covers the space, not by making a player barrel up the field with the ball in tow. But hey, if it works, it works - and it did work very well last season.

However, I do think Wanyama isn't a step down from Dier. I think they both accomplish much the same thing - screening our backline fairly effectively. I admit we don't have Dier's distribution from deep, but we do still have Toby's long balls which accomplish much the same thing - and we gain Wanyama's strength in possession and (surprising) dribbling ability when shielding the ball.

I don't think Son is a such a step down compared to Lamela in terms of overall quality, but they bring very different types of quality to the team. And when the other 5 of our front 6 all like the extra touch (for various reasons) the only player who actually ups our tempo is missed all the more. When our two deep midfielders severely lack creativity the attacking midfielder who excels at coming a bit deeper and being creative in our buildup play is not effectively replaced by someone who excels at running at defenders in the final third.

Fair enough, although I think Son plays at Lamela's tempo - it's just that his pressing isn't as targeted as Lamela's (pressing space, not the man), so it's less noticeable. I agree on his first touch and creativity being missed, though (even as I feel that it shouldn't be *that* much of a loss when Alli, Eriksen and co. all ostensibly have the same abilities, if not the same preferences).

 

[Robspur12]

Facts are facts - interpreting them is the issue. We finished 3rd, with 70 points. That is a fact. We finished 5th, with 72 points. That is also a fact. 72 > 70. That is a fact. 3rd > 5th. That is also a fact. Now, what do you make of all these facts? There's the rub. And as much as I don't like people underrating managers' tenures here (as evidenced by my lonely crusade in favour of AVB), I also don't like people overstating the impact of what a manager's done - that's the sort of territory that I feel some of Poch's more committed defenders sometimes stray into (completely innocently, of course - they honestly, earnestly believe Poch has done a great job, an opinion you perhaps share).



The funny thing is, with his 100 million, I think (iirc) we were still on course to beat the points total from 2012-2013 all the way up until December, even as we were being regularly hammered. He was winning the smaller games, while horrifically losing the bigger ones.

He overcame our Spursiness in 2012-2013, using his world-class player in Bale - I'll put it that way. He built Bale into the player he became in 2012-2013, taking him away from the wing and sticking him in the middle + making him bulk up. Has Poch achieved the same with his world-class players in Toby, Lloris and (possibly) Dembele? I'd argue he didn't, because that late collapse last season put paid to any notion of consistency arising *solely* because of the WC players at a manager's disposal.

The only thing that counts in terms of prize money, prestige and champs league qualification is league position. Points totals mean nothing if you finish outside the top 4. For the improvement AVB achieved with Bale , Poch has eclipsed with Kane Dier and Alli having started from a lower base. Oh and you are right we were doing brilliantly with AVB just before he was sacked.

 

[braineclipse]

Facts are facts - interpreting them is the issue. We finished 3rd, with 70 points. That is a fact. We finished 5th, with 72 points. That is also a fact. 72 > 70. That is a fact. 3rd > 5th. That is also a fact. Now, what do you make of all these facts? There's the rub. And as much as I don't like people underrating managers' tenures here (as evidenced by my lonely crusade in favour of AVB), I also don't like people overstating the impact of what a manager's done - that's the sort of territory that I feel some of Poch's more committed defenders sometimes stray into (completely innocently, of course - they honestly, earnestly believe Poch has done a great job, an opinion you perhaps share).



The funny thing is, with his 100 million, I think (iirc) we were still on course to beat the points total from 2012-2013 all the way up until December, even as we were being regularly hammered. He was winning the smaller games, while horrifically losing the bigger ones.

He overcame our Spursiness in 2012-2013, using his world-class player in Bale - I'll put it that way. He built Bale into the player he became in 2012-2013, taking him away from the wing and sticking him in the middle + making him bulk up. Has Poch achieved the same with his world-class players in Toby, Lloris and (possibly) Dembele? I'd argue he didn't, because that late collapse last season put paid to any notion of consistency arising *solely* because of the WC players at a manager's disposal.

In that 12/13 season that you talk about AVB also had Lloris and Dembele. Dembele isn't world class by any standard I'll agree to mind you, but he did have two of the 3 you mention Poch has now as well as Bale. That makes the "world class player" difference Bale instead of Alderweireld - a considerable difference I would say.

 

[braineclipse]

So do I - personally, I've always liked the 'destroyer/auxiliary CB' + 'deep-lying playmaker/distributor' combination, and I feel like we have a bit of an unusual system going with our reliance on Dembele when it comes to taking the ball forward from the deeper midfield positions - usually that's achieved with a pass that covers the space, not by making a player barrel up the field with the ball in tow. But hey, if it works, it works - and it did work very well last season.

However, I do think Wanyama isn't a step down from Dier. I think they both accomplish much the same thing - screening our backline fairly effectively. I admit we don't have Dier's distribution from deep, but we do still have Toby's long balls which accomplish much the same thing - and we gain Wanyama's strength in possession and (surprising) dribbling ability when shielding the ball.


Fair enough, although I think Son plays at Lamela's tempo - it's just that his pressing isn't as targeted as Lamela's (pressing space, not the man), so it's less noticeable. I agree on his first touch and creativity being missed, though (even as I feel that it shouldn't be *that* much of a loss when Alli, Eriksen and co. all ostensibly have the same abilities, if not the same preferences).

I have to say I'm not one of Dier's biggest fans, I'm not utterly convinced by his on the ball work either for that role. But he's young and improving and already better than Wanyama.

It's about a lot more than the long balls. Toby does that, but those balls coming from the back 4 is one thing. But actually playing through pressure is something very different. And a lot more complex than just pinging long accurate long balls from the back. Wanyama is a passenger in most of our buildup play, Dier isn't. That's a significant difference.

Son plays at Lamela's passing tempo? Either we're talking past each other or we'll have to agree to disagree cause I can't see that at all. Quick one and two touch passing doesn't seem to be Son's strength for me.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I have to say I'm not one of Dier's biggest fans, I'm not utterly convinced by his on the ball work either for that role. But he's young and improving and already better than Wanyama.

It's about a lot more than the long balls. Toby does that, but those balls coming from the back 4 is one thing. But actually playing through pressure is something very different. And a lot more complex than just pinging long accurate long balls from the back. Wanyama is a passenger in most of our buildup play, Dier isn't. That's a significant difference.

Son plays at Lamela's passing tempo? Either we're talking past each other or we'll have to agree to disagree cause I can't see that at all. Quick one and two touch passing doesn't seem to be Son's strength for me.

Sons first touch is woeful

What is good is he will shoot on sight and run a lot but his actual close technique is poor

He is different to anyone else we have but today he had a poor game IMO

 

[Pirate55]

We lost to Chelsea and United away, drew to Arsenal away and Liverpool and Leicester at home, and beat City at home.

Notice a pattern? Very small sample size, but we haven't actually done all that great against the top sides. I don't think we're predisposed to losing against them all the time, mind - I do think we'll probably lose to them whenever something is at stake, like a place in the top four or a chance to put them out of the running for the same. For what it's worth, when the media and the fans start expecting anything of the team, they will immediately fold - when we don't expect anything of them, they'll excel. Simple as that.

As for our tactical system, we haven't changed it much, if at all - Wanyama seems to have displaced Dier as Poch's first-choice DM, which is probably the only major change. Today was as close to a full 2015/2016 4-2-3-1 as we've seen this season (minus Dier and Lamela), and we looked thoroughly, unremittingly awful.

Same as last season. Results against our rivals (bar City) continues to be poor. Poch out thought by better managers ?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Same as last season. Results against our rivals (bar City) continues to be poor. Poch out thought by better managers ?

Well our rivals are better this season than last so surely the fact we are having better results shows improvement

And we lost to Leicester at home last season not drew so we have improved

 

[Yermiyahu]

Let me preface my comments by saying that I am not a hater of Poch, nor do I want him sacked. However against Chelsea away in the second half and pretty much all game today he was out-thought tactically by coaches who actually have a history of winning at the highest level. This will keep happening as he is literally learning on the job. He is up against money doped clubs who can afford to buy quality players and employ coaches who are at the peak of their profession. Given that, I actually think that he is doing a pretty decent job. But he is going to need a lot more time and money to turn us into the real deal.

 

[Hemant]

Sons first touch is woeful

What is good is he will shoot on sight and run a lot but his actual close technique is poor

He is different to anyone else we have but today he had a poor game IMO

Yet he does have a goal in him and can move the ball in and out.
His tracking is half-baked and that is where Lamela is better. Today he should have stayed.