***Tottenham Hotspur vs. Manchester United OMT***

[DubaiSpur]

If you take out two of any team's best players they'll look poor

Dier and Lamela were our best players last season?

Kane, Alli, Toby, Hugo, Rose, Dembele...there are many players I'd consider equally (if not more) important to our team. Plus, those two were the players we theoretically had good backups for heading into this season - Wayama and Son, respectively. Indeed, Dier's backup has seemingly usurped Dier in the side.

 

[Hemant]

Alli was so sloppy
Kane wasn't
Son should have gone upfront

Problem is these guys and Eriksen are effectively our goals.

GKN, Sissoko, Haven't scored and Janssen, Winks have only a few between them.
The subs were really not likely to get us goals, but We needed to do something.
I would have kept Son, Eriksen, Alli, but taken off the DMs or kept one until the last few minutes. I would have accepted a 2-0 loss in the hope of an equaliser.

 

[StephenH]

Btw I think Winks is very good but not the sub to bring on when we are chasing the game imo. Cue the "but he moves the ball quickly phalanx."That makes absolutely no difference if the players ahead are not making the right runs.

Not a great deal of choice
Too many passengers today!
Alli and Kane might as well stayed in the dressing room.

 

[DubaiSpur]

You do realise there's a just a SLIGHT difference between the amount of space and time we were given vs Swansea and CSKA compared with what we got today against Manyoo?

United were far more at it today than either of the clubs you mention and it was clear that Mourinho had set his team up specifically to deny us space or time near their box. It was the main reason the likes of Alli and Kane played so poorly, they were never allowed a look-in.

Opposition in 'wanting to win the game' shocker. If we can't cope with our opponents not giving us the freedom of the city to play around in, we might not deserve to be in this league, you know.

 

[StephenH]

Problem is these guys and Eriksen are effectively our goals.

GKN, Sissoko, Haven't scored and Janssen, Winks have only a few between them.
The subs were really not likely to get us goals, but We needed to do something.
I would have kept Son, Eriksen, Alli, but taken off the DMs or kept one until the last few minutes. I would have accepted a 2-0 loss in the hope of an equaliser.

Our offensive frontline looks looked woeful.
When Sissoko looks our most decisive player you know we have problems. We made a poor team look respectable!

 

[90291Spur]

Do you think any of those players would be sold for less than Sissoko? Your logic is getting worse by the minute!

Thanks again for the insult. Can I get your email address so I can seek your sage wisdom to improve my quality of life and live and be more like you ? Please? Pretty please?

 

[braineclipse]

You do realise there's a just a SLIGHT difference between the amount of space and time we were given vs Swansea and CSKA compared with what we got today against Manyoo?

United were far more at it today than either of the clubs you mention and it was clear that Mourinho had set his team up specifically to deny us space or time near their box. It was the main reason the likes of Alli and Kane played so poorly, they were never allowed a look-in.

Of course I realize that. I'm not an idiot.

But all the more important that the service to our front 4 is good. Every time Wanyama and Dembele takes another touch or slows down our play by making the safe sideways or backwards pass United close down whatever space is there to be exploited. They consistently fail to find our front 4 in space. Against CSKA and Swansea there was so much space it didn't matter, and our front 4 showed that they can be absolutely lethal. Today it mattered and we looked toothless. Just like we've done in too many games this season.

I realize there's a risk to playing players like Bentaleb, Mason or Winks. But it's a risk I'd personally prefer to the risk of having our entire 4 look clueless because they get no service from our central midfield.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I am among the minority, I enjoyed the Harry days, although not as much as the Jol era (the atmosphere at WHL in those few seasons was amazing). Really wanted AVB to succeed, just his style wasn't the Tottenham way, although he wasnt fully backed, as in, he didnt get the players he wanted like Hulk and Moutinho

I think we all did, mate. Glorious days - just sad how it all ended amidst a storm of recriminations, unfulfilled ambitions, cowardice and self-interest.

 

[Kandi1977]

My main concern with Poch is that he does not seem to have a alternative way of playing. We struggle against teams who counter our press with long balls, like united today, Chelski and West Brom. The thing is that we all know they will play like that, yet he does not change anything to counter it. We just stroddle along in our usual way, even when we clearly struggle.

Sent with Miele C1 Vacuum cleaner

 

[ringo]

We lost to Chelsea and United away, drew to Arsenal away and Liverpool and Leicester at home, and beat City at home.

Notice a pattern? Very small sample size, but we haven't actually done all that great against the top sides. I don't think we're predisposed to losing against them all the time, mind - I do think we'll probably lose to them whenever something is at stake, like a place in the top four or a chance to put them out of the running for the same. For what it's worth, when the media and the fans start expecting anything of the team, they will immediately fold - when we don't expect anything of them, they'll excel. Simple as that.

As for our tactical system, we haven't changed it much, if at all - Wanyama seems to have displaced Dier as Poch's first-choice DM, which is probably the only major change. Today was as close to a full 2015/2016 4-2-3-1 as we've seen this season (minus Dier and Lamela), and we looked thoroughly, unremittingly awful.

I respectfully disagree re the pressure, but I guess we will see how that goes.

As for the system,I wouldn't underestimate the difference it makes playing Wanyama instead of Dier or indeed missing Lamela (and I never thought I would say that). However, and I don't have the stats, it feels as if we have put put a less settled side out in terms of consistency of line-up, players playing in the same positions, week in, week out.

 

[braineclipse]

Dier and Lamela were our best players last season?

Kane, Alli, Toby, Hugo, Rose, Dembele...there are many players I'd consider equally (if not more) important to our team. Plus, those two were the players we theoretically had good backups for heading into this season - Wayama and Son, respectively. Indeed, Dier's backup has seemingly usurped Dier in the side.

Let's see what happens as the season progresses. Dier was off form at the start of the season and Wanyama rightly got that place. Then Dier had to play CB for quite a while as Alderweireld got injured. I can understand not bringing Dier right back into midfield against United with him not having played there for quite some time.

We miss Lamela quite a lot. Some of us have been praising him for years (literally) for some of the things he brings to the side. Things Son definitely doesn't bring. Things that Alli and Eriksen rarely bring. Things that Sissoko couldn't possibly dream of bringing.

 

[Robspur12]

The Etihad was phenomenal - it was the culmination of a full-throated repudiation of our Spursiness for two glorious months. We looked to all the world like we would go 'sexy' again after folding and losing to f*Cking Popmpey in the FA Cup semi...our season was over, with Arsenal, Chelsea, United and City yet to play in the final few games.

But my GHod, how we fought, how we battled, how we won!

Same thing with 2012-2013 - unlike in 09/10, we didn't get the reward at the end, but GHod did we keep the race running all the way through to the end. Ultimately, it wasn't us who faltered, it was just Arsenal who went on an unreal run of form to deny us. But we ground out result after result after result, in a phenomenally consistent season. That sort of consistency in the face of adversity also felt very un-Spurslike to me.

It's why I'm so fond of AVB and (to a lesser extent) Harry - they repudiated our sexy nature, if only for a limited time.

For all of Poch's good work, he hasn't done so yet. Thus, I'm still looking at him through a pair of relatively unemotional lens.

Anyway, if you mention that we're genetically predisposed to horribly crumbling under pressure, you'll get a lot of disagreement from posters who earnestly believe that we shouldn't talk about it for whatever reason - so there's that to look forward to.

Give Poch the world class players that were bestowed on those two and I am sure Poch produces better than both, after all he has already finished higher in the league than both of them. AVB showed what he could achieve with his world class player removed I.e. getting hammered against the top teams. Enough said about Harry. You persist with this pointless comparison with previous managers as if the teams are comparable. Poch doesn't even have a world class striker like Jol had in Berbatov. We were poor today I agree, but against that team if they are firing a draw was the best I felt we could get.

 

[braineclipse]

My main concern with Poch is that he does not seem to have a alternative way of playing. We struggle against teams who counter our press with long balls, like united today, Chelski and West Brom. The thing is that we all know they will play like that, yet he does not change anything to counter it. We just stroddle along in our usual way, even when we clearly struggle.

Janssen and Lamela missing as well as Dier not having had a good game in midfield for months (I think) limited his options today. I wouldn't be surprised if Pochettino actually thought long and hard about including Winks today. But United at Old Trafford was probably a bridge too far at this point for our youngest (first team) Harry. As Winks grows in experience and a couple of players return from injury we'll see Pochettino have a lot more flexibility to change our play.

 

[paxtonwolf]

I think we all did, mate. Glorious days - just sad how it all ended amidst a storm of recriminations, unfulfilled ambitions, cowardice and self-interest.

I still blame the FA. Should have nailed their colours to the mast straight away and told him in the February, sorry Harry, Roy's got the gig, forget England, instead they dragged out, led him along believing he had a chance, and he (not surprisingly) took his eye off the Tottenham ball.

 

[Kandi1977]

Thanks again for the insult. Can I get your email address so I can seek your sage wisdom to improve my quality of life and live and be more like you ? Please? Pretty please?

Do you not see it? You're obsessed with Sissoko's price, yet you compare it with transfers done years ago! It nor correct or relevant. Chill out and count to 10
You can email me at sissokosprice@notrelevant.com

 

[Hemant]

Dembele needs protecting I guess, injury prone. Winks is good also.

However, dembele can beat a man and is able to break a system, as long as some has tuned his radar in the forward direction. Hence, he should be kept on when we need a goal.
Winks is a better passer than Wanyama but I think we are asking too much of him to change a game.
Dier was needed today as they were happy to let Wanyama have the ball in central shooting positions. Dier can shoot, cross and head.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Opposition in 'wanting to win the game' shocker. If we can't cope with our opponents not giving us the freedom of the city to play around in, we might not deserve to be in this league, you know.

I'm not claiming we were any good today. Someone like you who mostly reflects on the game with perception must surely have notice by now that our greatest we have a real problem when teams set out to stop us at all costs like United did today?

Of course I realize that. I'm not an idiot.

But all the more important that the service to our front 4 is good. Every time Wanyama and Dembele takes another touch or slows down our play by making the safe sideways or backwards pass United close down whatever space is there to be exploited. They consistently fail to find our front 4 in space. Against CSKA and Swansea there was so much space it didn't matter, and our front 4 showed that they can be absolutely lethal. Today it mattered and we looked toothless. Just like we've done in too many games this season.

I realize there's a risk to playing players like Bentaleb, Mason or Winks. But it's a risk I'd personally prefer to the risk of having our entire 4 look clueless because they get no service from our central midfield.

Point is United were not only at us far more intensively around the box, they were also choking us out in the centre of the park. When you are surrounded by two/three players all the time the first thing you need to do is ensure you do not lose possession. So you pass it to the nearest player to avoid being disposessed. For me we were poor mainly because we could not cope with the intensity of their commitment all over the park.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Give Poch the world class players that were bestowed on those two and I am sure Poch produces better than what they achieved after all he has already finished higher than both of them achieved. AVB showed what he could achieve with his world class player removed and it was getting hammered against the top teams. Enough said about Harry. You keep bringing up this pointless comparison with previous managers as if the teams are comparable. Poch doesn't even have a world class striker like Jol had in Berbatov. We were poor today I agree, but against that team if they are firing a draw was the best I felt we could get.

Poch finished 3rd with 70 points in a poor season where everyone of note bar us and Leicester underperformed. AVB finished 5th with 72 points in a far more competitive season at the top end. How's that for the relative worth of finishes? It's a pet peeve of mine.

I don't know if Poch can produce better than Harry and AVB with better players across the board - we'll have to see if he can. But let's not pretend as if he's been handicapped enormously in comparison to those two. Harry had Modric, Bale, VdV and King as his world-class players - AVB had just Bale, with Lloris coming into it as the season progressed. Poch (I'd argue) has at least Toby and Lloris, and very possibly Dembele when he's on form (I think he has a ridiculous success rate in terms of dribbles completed and possession won, the highest in Europe iirc). Plus, he probably has the same squad level as AVB and Harry did. He might well be at a disadvantage compared to those two, but it isn't as overwhelmingly large as his more ardent supporters like to claim it is, imo.

I bring up this comparison because I feel it's still valid in terms of the effects those managers had on breaking our crippling mental blocks - each of them took a large step forward in their own unique ways. Poch has also done so, but in a far smaller manner, and the unbelievable collapse at the end of last season still (imo) calls even that into question. And as for United 'firing', they were crap, and have been crap the whole goddamn season. If this is what a 'firing' United side looks like, I'm sorry, but there are many, many teams that they will struggle against.

Not against us, though. Not when there's something at stake. There, they'll easily win these crunch games without breaking a sweat, while we withdraw into our shells and look every inch the submissive, eternal bridesmaids. *That* is what I feel Poch has to overcome, which he has not yet done to any significant degree - his more ardent supporters claim he has, and my counter-claim is that he really, really hasn't.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I thought we played well enough but can't carry passengers

Kane and Alli were poor and son was not in the game

We won't gonna get a gol of they don't perform in this system

Really poor goal to concede but the chance of the game was wanyamas header which was woefully bad

 

[DubaiSpur]

Let's see what happens as the season progresses. Dier was off form at the start of the season and Wanyama rightly got that place. Then Dier had to play CB for quite a while as Alderweireld got injured. I can understand not bringing Dier right back into midfield against United with him not having played there for quite some time.

We miss Lamela quite a lot. Some of us have been praising him for years (literally) for some of the things he brings to the side. Things Son definitely doesn't bring. Things that Alli and Eriksen rarely bring. Things that Sissoko couldn't possibly dream of bringing.

Re: Dier, yeah, he's had a stop-start season. I hope he gets back in, just to see if we gain more fluidity when he's there as opposed to when Wanyama plays in the DM position - however, my point was more that we had a more than adequate backup for him heading into this season. Ditto Lamela - although we miss him, I don't think Son is such a step down when compared to Erik. I will concede, though, that Lamela seems to be the only player in the entire side who can play passes through the opposition's defense - Eriksen, Alli, Son, none of them have managed it at all consistently so far.

I respectfully disagree re the pressure, but I guess we will see how that goes.

As for the system,I wouldn't underestimate the difference it makes playing Wanyama instead of Dier or indeed missing Lamela (and I never thought I would say that). However, and I don't have the stats, it feels as if we have put put a less settled side out in terms of consistency of line-up, players playing in the same positions, week in, week out.

Fair enough, we'll see how it goes. But I disagree re: Dier and Lamela - as I explained above, I don't think we should attribute our suffering to their absence, given that we had capable backups heading into this season.