***Tottenham Hotspur vs. Manchester United OMT***

[Bullet]

If we'd been spanked 6-0 by Emirates Marketing Project and then ding donged on 5-0 at home by Liverpool and 3-0 at home by an awful West Ham side, whilst only managing to win games by grinding them out in one goal wins and very unconvincing performances supported by dodgy penalties and long range screamers from nothing, then yeah, I'd be getting worried about Poch too.

I've always found goal difference to be quite a good indicator as to whether a team's position in the league is false or not. If it's higher than you'd expect, it implies that they're good at ripping teams to shreds on their day and avoiding heavy defeats, but have sometimes drawn too many games when they're off their game. Whereas if it's lower than you'd expect, it implies that the team has managed to grind out a few lucky results to elevate their position but are prone to getting spanked when the opposition figures out their game plan. I'll remind you that AVB's goal difference when he was sacked at this stage of the season was -6, Poch's now is +13. I'd be surprised if we've had a goal difference much higher than that at this stage of a season - I know that we're already on our highest points tally at this stage bar the amazing start we made in 2011-12.

I'm not pretending things are perfect. Today's performance was very frustrating from an attacking sense. Kane, Alli and Son were so so poor today. But please, a bit of perspective everybody. This was MANCHESTER UNITED AWAY. When have we ever beaten Mourinho at home? Not many teams do. Even less now that Mkhitaryan has come into the side and is in form (why he wasn't playing him before baffles me). It's almost as if some of you actually expected us to just turn up and tinkle all over them. To be making any comparisons between Pochettino and Andre Villas fudging Boas is quite frankly ridiculous, the guy was an utter clown.

Brilliant.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

If we'd been spanked 6-0 by Emirates Marketing Project and then ding donged on 5-0 at home by Liverpool and 3-0 at home by an awful West Ham side, whilst only managing to win games by grinding them out in one goal wins and very unconvincing performances supported by dodgy penalties and long range screamers from nothing, then yeah, I'd be getting worried about Poch too.

I've always found goal difference to be quite a good indicator as to whether a team's position in the league is false or not. If it's higher than you'd expect, it implies that they're good at ripping teams to shreds on their day and avoiding heavy defeats, but have sometimes drawn too many games when they're off their game. Whereas if it's lower than you'd expect, it implies that the team has managed to grind out a few lucky results to elevate their position but are prone to getting spanked when the opposition figures out their game plan. I'll remind you that AVB's goal difference when he was sacked at this stage of the season was -6, Poch's now is +13. I'd be surprised if we've had a goal difference much higher than that at this stage of a season - I know that we're already on our highest points tally at this stage bar the amazing start we made in 2011-12.

I'm not pretending things are perfect. Today's performance was very frustrating from an attacking sense. Kane, Alli and Son were so so poor today. But please, a bit of perspective everybody. This was MANCHESTER UNITED AWAY. When have we ever beaten Mourinho at home? Not many teams do. Even less now that Mkhitaryan has come into the side and is in form (why he wasn't playing him before baffles me). It's almost as if some of you actually expected us to just turn up and tinkle all over them. To be making any comparisons between Pochettino and Andre Villas fudging Boas is quite frankly ridiculous, the guy was an utter clown.

Brilliant

Context and detail in one piece

 

[Hemant]

Same here.

In which case a cross that doesn't reach a Spurs player in a manner that allows them to do something useful with it is as poor as any other pass with such a result

like all passes there must be a cost-benefit analysis by the player on the ball. If a difficult through ball results in a goal scoring opportunity then it must be worth attempting, even if the chances are it will be cut-out.
Eriksen, I feel goes for too many "Hollywood" balls, but overall I feel we err too much on the side of caution, as a team. The mantra must be possession first but is It affecting our creativity and game winning?

 

[Spursman]

Eriksen , son, dele, Lamela

All inconsistent players that can't take the game by the scruff of the neck. This is where we need to add some real quality.

 

[SUIYHA]

Eriksen , son, dele, Lamela

All inconsistent players that can't take the game by the scruff of the neck. This is where we need to add some real quality.

I think I said something similar in the summer, but I'd love to be able to bring Lamela and Eriksen off the bench in games. The best way to improve your squad is to improve your first XI and create better backup by relegating the players who were previously indispensable first choice into squad players. The problem with our summer transfer strategy was that we tried to sign backup players. Other than Wanyama, none of our summer signings have been able to hold down a first team spot, and there is a major debate about whether we're better off picking Dier there again now that Toby is fit again.

We were bound to have some injuries after last season's luck. I think it was also a bit naive of us to think that none of our attacking players would regress from last season. I know they're all young, but not everybody's development curve is exponential.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Let's see what happens as the season progresses. Dier was off form at the start of the season and Wanyama rightly got that place. Then Dier had to play CB for quite a while as Alderweireld got injured. I can understand not bringing Dier right back into midfield against United with him not having played there for quite some time.

We miss Lamela quite a lot. Some of us have been praising him for years (literally) for some of the things he brings to the side. Things Son definitely doesn't bring. Things that Alli and Eriksen rarely bring. Things that Sissoko couldn't possibly dream of bringing.

What are these 'things' of which you speak? Oh...you mean going week after week, after week not scoring.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

I'm not pretending things are perfect. Today's performance was very frustrating from an attacking sense. Kane, Alli and Son were so so poor today. But please, a bit of perspective everybody. This was MANCHESTER UNITED AWAY. When have we ever beaten Mourinho at home? Not many teams do. Even less now that Mkhitaryan has come into the side and is in form (why he wasn't playing him before baffles
me). It's almost as if some of you actually expected us to just turn up and tinkle all over them.

This is spot on. I was certainly guilty of thinking it would be a lot easier for us. After Swansea and CSKA (and taking standard of opposition onto account), as well as Chelsea first half, it felt like we were finally flying and could take on allcomers. I thought we could win there today. Not that it would be a walkover but I thought we would have enough creativity, enough pace, enough movement and attacking guile to come out on top. I don't know what happened to us today - for everyone to be so out of form is very odd. Or was it purely United stopping us playing? If so, there's more work for Poch to do to anticipate how teams are likely to counteract us and to be able to react to that. There's still a learning curve there. The team selection was pretty much what everyone expected - the only question mark being Wanyama v Dier. With hindsight Die might have been the better choice but with the front four being so off the pace I don't think it would have changed much. Although Dier would have done better with that header. Net that, and the game changes.
Sissoko looked like he might make a difference. He demonstrated his strength and ability to move the ball forward. I'm not sure, without re-watching, whether it was his final ball that was consistently bad or whether he was justifiably expecting runs into the box to get on the end of said crosses which just didn't happen. Either way he looked most likely to make something happen.

I feel despondent about the result. Or rather about the performance. But then I look at City yesterday and Liverpool today, and it just demonstrates that things don't go as expected every time. And those results make our loss all the more frustrating, of course. We seemed to be getting back the form of last season. I believe that form is still there. Two home games coming up to get back on track.
Disappointng, yes. Disastrous, no.

 

[DubaiSpur]

If we'd been spanked 6-0 by Emirates Marketing Project and then ding donged on 5-0 at home by Liverpool and 3-0 at home by an awful West Ham side, whilst only managing to win games by grinding them out in one goal wins and very unconvincing performances supported by dodgy penalties and long range screamers from nothing, then yeah, I'd be getting worried about Poch too.

I've always found goal difference to be quite a good indicator as to whether a team's position in the league is false or not. If it's higher than you'd expect, it implies that they're good at ripping teams to shreds on their day and avoiding heavy defeats, but have sometimes drawn too many games when they're off their game. Whereas if it's lower than you'd expect, it implies that the team has managed to grind out a few lucky results to elevate their position but are prone to getting spanked when the opposition figures out their game plan. I'll remind you that AVB's goal difference when he was sacked at this stage of the season was -6, Poch's now is +13. I'd be surprised if we've had a goal difference much higher than that at this stage of a season - I know that we're already on our highest points tally at this stage bar the amazing start we made in 2011-12.

I'm not pretending things are perfect. Today's performance was very frustrating from an attacking sense. Kane, Alli and Son were so so poor today. But please, a bit of perspective everybody. This was MANCHESTER UNITED AWAY. When have we ever beaten Mourinho at home? Not many teams do. Even less now that Mkhitaryan has come into the side and is in form (why he wasn't playing him before baffles me). It's almost as if some of you actually expected us to just turn up and tinkle all over them. To be making any comparisons between Pochettino and Andre Villas fudging Boas is quite frankly ridiculous, the guy was an utter clown.

Manchester United away isn't what it once was, and if AVB (the 'utter clown') could beat a United side managed by Sir Alex Ferguson at Old Trafford, and Tim f*cking Sherwood could then repeat the feat a year later, Mauricio Pochettino can feasibly be expected to have at least a chance of doing so there as well. Capitalizing 'Manchester United Away' won't change that fact.

The bit about goal difference is interesting - presumably, a defensively solid team grinding out 1-0s and 0-0s could be expected to have a low GD at the end of the season, but such teams have historically tended to do far better than sides like ours - 'flair' sides scoring bucketfuls one week and getting spanked/limply losing the next. Would you not say that GD, in light of that trend, doesn't tell the full story about how effective a team is? (Not saying AVB's 2013/2014 GD was good, mind - our 5-0 and 6-0 thumpings were horrific, and deserved).

The reason why I'm comparing AVB and Pochettino has less to do with their league records at this point in their respective seasons and more to do with the fact that AVB, imo, broke a mental hoodoo with his consistent run in 2012-2013 that saw us finish with our record points tally and take the fight for 4th down to the final day in a relentless chase with Arsenal. Arsenal won, but for me, that consistency was as much of a hoodoo-breaker as Redknapp's unreal run after losing the FA Cup Semi in 2010, where we beat Arsenal (for the first time in ages), Chelsea and City to secure 4th and CL football for the first time ever.

I don't think Poch has done what either AVB or Harry did, that's all. He hasn't broken hoodoos on that level yet. Our team still fights its yawning mental demons, and collapses like a pack of cards more often than not when the pressure is on them to secure a result/play to expectations. We do our best work away from the limelight, and shrink whenever we're thrown into it by virtue of our good performances outside of it. That's a hoodoo Poch hasn't yet broken, judging by last season's abject collapse and results like this one and the one against Chelsea.

It's not like it's easy for him to do so - these are games against United and Chelsea, after all, and *not* collapsing and finishing behind Arsenal is something our club is still utterly unused to. But he hasn't yet done it, is all. And it shows in games like today's.

 

[Robspur12]

I wouldn't actually class Bale as being that much better than Toby in terms of being a difference maker to us - Bale's goalscoring record is probably matched by the difference Toby makes when he's on the field versus when he isn't, as evidenced by our record with and without him. As I said, King-esque.

Toby is good and important to the team but to say he has the same influence on our defending as Bale had in terms of difference maker is simply wide of the mark. With Toby being out we did not suddenly start to ship goals. We maintained the best defensive record in the league. Without Bale we simply struggled to create let alone finish chances. I lost count of the number of games that he won us all three points. As I said Toby is good but I cannot recall many games directly attributable to him.

Ah, but we're not talking about the rewards you get for finishing 4th or 5th, we're talking about whether places or points are a better measure of performance over a season. You can play better and get more points but finish lower in a competitive season than you perhaps can in a less competitive one - does that mean the latter team performed better than the former did, in objective terms?

AVB like Poch will have been set an objective before the season starts -to finish top 4 as we had the season before under Harry. Levy would have cared about his points total only insofar as it met his objective of finishing top 4 or above. He failed, whilst you could say Poch exceeded his by finishing 3rd. If I was a manager I know which one I would prefer? The highest points thing is just something for the AVB acolytes to hold on to. It's a pointless stat. Would he have achieved that stat if Bale had missed the last 2 games of the season like Poch had to put up with the loss of Dembele and Alli.

As for did he make spurs less "sexy" he can't even claim that in 12/13. At the time he beat Arsenal in March his team were 7 points AHEAD not behind. He lost that lead to Arsenal and not to an Arsenal team with Ozil or Sanchez, hell not even an Arsenal team with Fabregas or Van Persie but an Arsenal with Podolski and Gervinho and a Tottenham team with lloris, Vertonghen Bale, Adebayor and Defoe. That's about as sexy as any manager has achieved.

As for AVB, I never said he did 'brilliantly' in the time leading up to his sacking - but he wasn't exactly leading us into the relegation zone by any means. He had 27 points from 16 games (8 wins, 3 draws, 5 losses) when he was sacked (the 16th of December, after the mid-week game - the third anniversary of his sacking's coming up on Friday). He had gotten us into the EL round of 32 having won all six group games. He had gotten us into the quarterfinal of the League Cup. We were eight points off the top.

Mauricio Pochettino has 27 points from 15 games heading into the midweek game, having secured a 2-1-3 record in the CL group that got us into the EL round of 32, and having been knocked out of the League Cup in the first round. We are currently ten points off the top.

So, was AVB's 2013-2014 tenure objectively worse in terms of points and results? Probably, but not by much at all.

. Refer to @SUIYHA's excellent summary.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Toby is good and important to the team but to say he has the same influence on our defending as Bale had in terms of difference maker is simply wide of the mark. With Toby being out we did not suddenly start to ship goals. We maintained the best defensive record in the league. Without Bale we simply struggled to create let alone finish chances. I lost count of the number of games that he won us all three points. As I said Toby is good but I cannot recall many games directly attributable to him.

Erm..we did sort of ship goals and look awful when he was gone. Haven't done the math on this, but I'm fairly certain that the expected number of goals conceded based on the previous games played would have been lower than then number we did concede. Anyway, Toby's a defender - the reason you can't attribute many games to him is because it is the nature of the job. You can't recall things that didn't happen, but they only didn't happen because he was there, doing his job. Attackers make things happen, so it's easier to remember them.

AVB like Poch will have been set an objective before the season starts -to finish top 4 as we had the season before under Harry. Levy would have cared about his points total only insofar as it met his objective of finishing top 4 or above. He failed, whilst you could say Poch exceeded his by finishing 3rd. If I was a manager I know which one I would prefer? The highest points thing is just something for the AVB acolytes to hold on to. It's a pointless stat. Would he have achieved that stat if Bale had missed the last 2 games of the season like Poch had to put up with the loss of Dembele and Alli.

Yes, Poch exceeded his mandate and secured his objective, maybe even more. But performance-wise, was it better than failing to secure the objective but winning more games and being more consistent? To put it another way (and to use an *extremely* nerdy historical analogy ), the Soviet-Finnish Winter War of 1939-1940 ultimately resulted in a Soviet victory, and the objectives of the Soviet government were achieved - but at a horrendous cost in terms of lives and material lost, *far* out of proportion to the damage inflicted on the comparatively tiny but ferocious Finnish defenders, who inflicted casualties far out of proportion to their losses. Who would you say *performed* better in that war, the Soviets or the Finns?

Also, Poch did not lose Lloris and Toby - two of the three WC players I pointed out he had, the other being Dembele. If AVB had lost Bale, it would have been equivalent to losing Toby or Lloris, to my mind - maybe both.

And in that case, Soton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine would have spanked us 5-0 and 10-1, respectively.

As for did he make spurs less "sexy" he can't even claim that in 12/13. At the time he beat Arsenal in March his team were 7 points AHEAD not behind. He lost that lead to Arsenal and not to an Arsenal team with Ozil or Sanchez, hell not even an Arsenal team with Fabregas or Van Persie but an Arsenal with Podolski and Gervinho and a Tottenham team with lloris, Vertonghen Bale, Adebayor and Defoe. That's about as sexy as any manager has achieved.

Aye, but a) Arsenal had a game in hand, iirc, and b) his final eight games saw 5 wins and 3 draws against Arsenal's six wins and two draws, with the resultant points difference accruing from that slightly superior performance from Arsenal's side - compare that with our late capitulation in 2015-2016. Final eight games, we had 3 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses against Arsenal's 4 wins and 4 draws. Not even great form from Arsenal...just a capitulation from us.

 

[Robspur12]

Erm..we did sort of ship goals and look awful when he was gone. Haven't done the math on this, but I'm fairly certain that the expected number of goals conceded based on the previous games played would have been lower than then number we did concede. Anyway, Toby's a defender - the reason you can't attribute many games to him is because it is the nature of the job. You can't recall things that didn't happen, but they only didn't happen because he was there, doing his job. Attackers make things happen, so it's easier to remember them.



Yes, Poch exceeded his mandate and secured his objective, maybe even more. But performance-wise, was it better than failing to secure the objective but winning more games and being more consistent? To put it another way (and to use an *extremely* nerdy historical analogy ), the Soviet-Finnish Winter War of 1939-1940 ultimately resulted in a Soviet victory, and the objectives of the Soviet government were achieved - but at a horrendous cost in terms of lives and material lost, *far* out of proportion to the damage inflicted on the comparatively tiny but ferocious Finnish defenders, who inflicted casualties far out of proportion to their losses. Who would you say *performed* better in that war, the Soviets or the Finns?

Also, Poch did not lose Lloris and Toby - two of the three WC players I pointed out he had, the other being Dembele. If AVB had lost Bale, it would have been equivalent to losing Toby or Lloris, to my mind - maybe both.

And in that case, Soton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine would have spanked us 5-0 and 10-1, respectively.



Aye, but a) Arsenal had a game in hand, iirc, and b) his final eight games saw 5 wins and 3 draws against Arsenal's six wins and two draws, with the resultant points difference accruing from that slightly superior performance from Arsenal's side - compare that with our late capitulation in 2015-2016. Final eight games, we had 3 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses against Arsenal's 4 wins and 4 draws. Not even great form from Arsenal...just a capitulation from us.

Do the math regarding Toby. We were no worse defensively in terms of goals conceded in the League with him out of the team than him in it. Verts stepped up big time and Wanyama a beast in terms of protecting back 4. You cannot selectively decide which players were important for Poch and which for AVB. Dembele was the lynch pin of our team last season in the same way as Bale was for AVB. We simply did not lose games that Dembele played in last season.

Last 8 games comparison? For AVB mostly won due to a Bale wonder strike. Put Dembele back in the team for the last 2 games we finish with at least the same points as AVB given Dembele's record in the team last season. That is before you take into account the relative lack of experience in attack provided by Alli and Kane last season compared to Adebayor and Defoe who AVB managed to reduce to bit part players.

 

[Robspur12]

Manchester United away isn't what it once was, and if AVB (the 'utter clown') could beat a United side managed by Sir Alex Ferguson at Old Trafford, and Tim f*cking Sherwood could then repeat the feat a year later, Mauricio Pochettino can feasibly be expected to have at least a chance of doing so there as well. Capitalizing 'Manchester United Away' won't change that fact.

The bit about goal difference is interesting - presumably, a defensively solid team grinding out 1-0s and 0-0s could be expected to have a low GD at the end of the season, but such teams have historically tended to do far better than sides like ours - 'flair' sides scoring bucketfuls one week and getting spanked/limply losing the next. Would you not say that GD, in light of that trend, doesn't tell the full story about how effective a team is? (Not saying AVB's 2013/2014 GD was good, mind - our 5-0 and 6-0 thumpings were horrific, and deserved).

The reason why I'm comparing AVB and Pochettino has less to do with their league records at this point in their respective seasons and more to do with the fact that AVB, imo, broke a mental hoodoo with his consistent run in 2012-2013 that saw us finish with our record points tally and take the fight for 4th down to the final day in a relentless chase with Arsenal. Arsenal won, but for me, that consistency was as much of a hoodoo-breaker as Redknapp's unreal run after losing the FA Cup Semi in 2010, where we beat Arsenal (for the first time in ages), Chelsea and City to secure 4th and CL football for the first time ever.

I don't think Poch has done what either AVB or Harry did, that's all. He hasn't broken hoodoos on that level yet. Our team still fights its yawning mental demons, and collapses like a pack of cards more often than not when the pressure is on them to secure a result/play to expectations. We do our best work away from the limelight, and shrink whenever we're thrown into it by virtue of our good performances outside of it. That's a hoodoo Poch hasn't yet broken, judging by last season's abject collapse and results like this one and the one against Chelsea.

It's not like it's easy for him to do so - these are games against United and Chelsea, after all, and *not* collapsing and finishing behind Arsenal is something our club is still utterly unused to. But he hasn't yet done it, is all. And it shows in games like today's.

You only break a hoodoo if you erm break a hoodoo. Failing to finish 4th was not breaking a hoodoo it was still very much in the fudging hoodoo. Not losing to Fulham at home would have broken the hoodoo. Matching a much weaker Arsenal team than we have had to face before or after would have been breaking a hoodoo. As for Poch not breaking hoodoos how about being the first Spurs manager to qualify for Champions league proper? How about the first Spurs manager to be unbeaten in his first 5 league games against Arsenal?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You only break a hoodoo if you erm break a hoodoo. Failing to finish 4th was not breaking a hoodoo it was still very much in the fudging hoodoo. Not losing to Fulham at home would have broken the hoodoo. Matching a much weaker Arsenal team than we have had to face before or after would have been breaking a hoodoo.

It was Voodoo magic that fudged us

 

[DubaiSpur]

Do the math regarding Toby. We were no worse defensively in terms of goals conceded in the League with him out of the team than him in it. Verts stepped up big time and Wanyama a beast in terms of protecting back 4. You cannot selectively decide which players were important for Poch and which for AVB. Dembele was the lynch pin of our team last season in the same way as Bale was for AVB. We simply did not lose games that Dembele played in last season.

Last 8 games comparison? For AVB mostly won due to a Bale wonder strike. Put Dembele back in the team for the last 2 games we finish with at least the same points as AVB given Dembele's record in the team last season. That is before you take into account the relative lack of experience in attack provided by Alli and Kane last season compared to Adebayor and Defoe who AVB managed to reduce to bit part players.

Alright, since you asked - In the CL, we averaged roughly a goal a game given away regardless of his presence/absence. played 2 games with him - against Monaco and CSKA. We conceded 2 against Monaco and kept a clean sheet against CSKA. In the next three prior to his return as a late sub against CSKA, we conceded 3 goals (2 against Monaco and 1 against Leverkusen). We conceded one on his return in the final group game. So, not much impact there, even if we count/don't count the final game.


Next, a rough comparison of the seven PL games preceding his injury and the ones after his injury that he missed. We kept clean sheets against Palace, Stoke, Sunderland and City - we conceded one goal each against Everton, Liverpool and Middlesbrough. That's 3 goals in 7 games. Then came the West Brom game, where he got injured - not sure whether to count it or not, but we conceded one there. He missed the next six, finally returning for the game against United. In the next six games without him prior to United, we conceded 6 goals - 1 against Leicester, 1 against Arsenal, 2 against West Ham and 2 against Chelsea. He came back and we conceded again against United.

Ignoring the West Brom and United games (I'm not sure about how to count them - his injury and his return, effectively), we conceded 3 goals in 7 games with him and 6 goals in 6 without him.

That's an impact. A considerable one. One that Verts and Wanyama could not cover despite (as you pointed out) playing very well and stepping up to the challenge.

We missed him enormously.

As for selectively deciding which players are important, as I said, Toby, Hugo and possibly Dembele were Poch's heavy hitters last season. He missed one of them in the final two games, and folded - *if* Bale had been missing for AVB's final games, he might have folded, he might not. But Poch did fold - and did so with (arguably) two of his stars still left with him in Hugo and Toby. Thus, the one remains a possibility, the other remains a certainty - conversely, what remains a certainty is that AVB finished with more points than Poch did, having guided the team to a far more consistent finish than Poch managed. Now, the relative worth of his higher points tally versus Poch's higher 3rd place finish is the focus of this discussion - the side-track into Dembele versus Toby aside.

You only break a hoodoo if you erm break a hoodoo. Failing to finish 4th was not breaking a hoodoo it was still very much in the fudging hoodoo. Not losing to Fulham at home would have broken the hoodoo. Matching a much weaker Arsenal team than we have had to face before or after would have been breaking a hoodoo.

Not really. We'd already broken the 4th place hoodoo twice by that point, imo - in 2010 and 2012. But in 2011 and 2012, we'd faltered at the death (2011, we faltered pretty much throughout the second half of the season) and routinely failed to finish consistently. *That* was the hoodoo. I felt AVB broke it by finishing with 5 wins and 3 draws from his final eight, versus (as I mentioned) Poch's 3 wins, 3 draws and 2 defeats.

As for whether or not he could have gone one further and finished ahead of Arsenal if he'd beaten Fulham, perhaps, perhaps not. But if you're bringing that up, it's only fair to point out that *not* abjectly, miserably being utterly destroyed 5-1 by an already relegated Saudi Sportswashing Machine side on the final day of the season would have allowed Poch to break that hoodoo (well, if we'd won, anyway). Sadly, he couldn't manage it either.

 

[Robspur12]

Alright, since you asked - In the CL, we averaged roughly a goal a game given away regardless of his presence/absence. played 2 games with him - against Monaco and CSKA. We conceded 2 against Monaco and kept a clean sheet against CSKA. In the next three prior to his return as a late sub against CSKA, we conceded 3 goals (2 against Monaco and 1 against Leverkusen). We conceded one on his return in the final group game. So, not much impact there, even if we count/don't count the final game.


Next, a rough comparison of the seven PL games preceding his injury and the ones after his injury that he missed. We kept clean sheets against Palace, Stoke, Sunderland and City - we conceded one goal each against Everton, Liverpool and Middlesbrough. That's 3 goals in 7 games. Then came the West Brom game, where he got injured - not sure whether to count it or not, but we conceded one there. He missed the next six, finally returning for the game against United. In the next six games without him prior to United, we conceded 6 goals - 1 against Leicester, 1 against Arsenal, 2 against West Ham and 2 against Chelsea. He came back and we conceded again against United.

Ignoring the West Brom and United games (I'm not sure about how to count them - his injury and his return, effectively), we conceded 3 goals in 7 games with him and 6 goals in 6 without him.

That's an impact. A considerable one. One that Verts and Wanyama could not cover despite (as you pointed out) playing very well and stepping up to the challenge.

We missed him enormously.

As for selectively deciding which players are important, as I said, Toby, Hugo and possibly Dembele were Poch's heavy hitters last season. He missed one of them in the final two games, and folded - *if* Bale had been missing for AVB's final games, he might have folded, he might not. But Poch did fold - and did so with (arguably) two of his stars still left with him in Hugo and Toby. Thus, the one remains a possibility, the other remains a certainty - conversely, what remains a certainty is that AVB finished with more points than Poch did, having guided the team to a far more consistent finish than Poch managed. Now, the relative worth of his higher points tally versus Poch's higher 3rd place finish is the focus of this discussion - the side-track into Dembele versus Toby aside.



Not really. We'd already broken the 4th place hoodoo twice by that point, imo - in 2010 and 2012. But in 2011 and 2012, we'd faltered at the death (2011, we faltered pretty much throughout the second half of the season) and routinely failed to finish consistently. *That* was the hoodoo. I felt AVB broke it by finishing with 5 wins and 3 draws from his final eight, versus (as I mentioned) Poch's 3 wins, 3 draws and 2 defeats.

As for whether or not he could have gone one further and finished ahead of Arsenal if he'd beaten Fulham, perhaps, perhaps not. But if you're bringing that up, it's only fair to point out that *not* abjectly, miserably being utterly destroyed 5-1 by an already relegated Saudi Sportswashing Machine side on the final day of the season would have allowed Poch to break that hoodoo (well, if we'd won, anyway). Sadly, he couldn't manage it either.

Ok for the sake of debate. Discount Palace, Stoke and Sunderland who at the time represented the weakest teams in the division, it is likely we would have kept clean sheets against them without Toby as we did vs Swansea. So that leaves Everton, Liverpool and City with Toby vs Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham without. Discount Middlesbrough and leicester for ease of comparison. I'd say considering Arsenal and Chelsea are the top 2 and we're away and west ham view us as their cup final the three London derbies are tougher? Conceding more goals is to be expected after all we conceded 2 against Chelsea last season with him playing. Even if I concede Toby's importance to the team it is not as important as a team that relied almost solely on Bale to carve out chances. Now do the math on how important Dembele was to us last season. With him starting and finishing the game we did not lose. You cannot ignore this. Him missing the last two games was crucial not sure about the point you are trying to make with loris and Toby being present. We did not fold this season without Toby in the same way we folded without Dembele last season.

The hoodoo was finishing above Arsenal, what you are actually talking about is not breaking hoodoos but finishing the season strongly. If that is the case, yes he did. So what? Over the course of a season he still failed to finish above the weakest Arsenal team faced by any recent Spurs Manager.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Can we win our next 4 games?

Injuries have been a big factor this season. We've not been able to get a rhythm and consistency. Hopefully we can in the next 4. Getting Janssen and Lamela back in the squad for the christmas period would be helpful.

 

[Robspur12]

I think I said something similar in the summer, but I'd love to be able to bring Lamela and Eriksen off the bench in games. The best way to improve your squad is to improve your first XI and create better backup by relegating the players who were previously indispensable first choice into squad players. The problem with our summer transfer strategy was that we tried to sign backup players. Other than Wanyama, none of our summer signings have been able to hold down a first team spot, and there is a major debate about whether we're better off picking Dier there again now that Toby is fit again.

We were bound to have some injuries after last season's luck. I think it was also a bit naive of us to think that none of our attacking players would regress from last season. I know they're all young, but not everybody's development curve is exponential.

Yep Danny Murphy was right with his analysis of our summer transfer window.

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2016/08/3...s-why-he-thinks-tottenham-supporters-will-be/

 

[SUIYHA]

Manchester United away isn't what it once was, and if AVB (the 'utter clown') could beat a United side managed by Sir Alex Ferguson at Old Trafford, and Tim f*cking Sherwood could then repeat the feat a year later, Mauricio Pochettino can feasibly be expected to have at least a chance of doing so there as well. Capitalizing 'Manchester United Away' won't change that fact.

The bit about goal difference is interesting - presumably, a defensively solid team grinding out 1-0s and 0-0s could be expected to have a low GD at the end of the season, but such teams have historically tended to do far better than sides like ours - 'flair' sides scoring bucketfuls one week and getting spanked/limply losing the next. Would you not say that GD, in light of that trend, doesn't tell the full story about how effective a team is? (Not saying AVB's 2013/2014 GD was good, mind - our 5-0 and 6-0 thumpings were horrific, and deserved).

The reason why I'm comparing AVB and Pochettino has less to do with their league records at this point in their respective seasons and more to do with the fact that AVB, imo, broke a mental hoodoo with his consistent run in 2012-2013 that saw us finish with our record points tally and take the fight for 4th down to the final day in a relentless chase with Arsenal. Arsenal won, but for me, that consistency was as much of a hoodoo-breaker as Redknapp's unreal run after losing the FA Cup Semi in 2010, where we beat Arsenal (for the first time in ages), Chelsea and City to secure 4th and CL football for the first time ever.

I don't think Poch has done what either AVB or Harry did, that's all. He hasn't broken hoodoos on that level yet. Our team still fights its yawning mental demons, and collapses like a pack of cards more often than not when the pressure is on them to secure a result/play to expectations. We do our best work away from the limelight, and shrink whenever we're thrown into it by virtue of our good performances outside of it. That's a hoodoo Poch hasn't yet broken, judging by last season's abject collapse and results like this one and the one against Chelsea.

It's not like it's easy for him to do so - these are games against United and Chelsea, after all, and *not* collapsing and finishing behind Arsenal is something our club is still utterly unused to. But he hasn't yet done it, is all. And it shows in games like today's.

AVB got 20 years worth of karma from games at Old Trafford paid back to him in poor refereeing decisions and ridiculously easy missed chances in that game at Old Trafford, we never should have won it. As with all his achievements, he also had a Bale wonder goal in that game. Sherwood then beat a far weaker side under Moyes. It's not that it's impossible that we could have won the game today, but statistically, looking at the players both sides have, United being at home, Jose Mourinho, I think United are always the likely winners. I thought United played well today, I've seen them play far worse than that and beat us far more comfortably in the past.

I'm not really sure what to say about the hoodoo point. As the team has progressed there are less "hoodoos" to be able to break as they've already been done, and those that are there are even harder. But the fact is - Poch has gotten us our highest ever PL finish, the most goals we've ever scored in a PL season, the fewest goals we've ever conceded in a PL season, he has managed our two longest unbeaten runs in the PL era and he has beaten every team in the league that he's faced as our manager except Liverpool. Fact is - everybody has to lose big games sometimes, the opposition in big games is usually pretty good. But here's a thing I can tell you that Poch has achieved that nobody else ever used to - when did you ever see us beating teams like City 4-1, United 3-0, Chelsea 5-3 etc before him? We might have ground out the odd win from time to time but there are very few examples from the last 20 years where we'd take on a big team and absolutely smash them. Likewise, since his first season how many times have we been really badly beaten ourselves, bar the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game? I believe that and the Dortmund away game are the only two games since the start of last season that we've conceded more than two goals in, I'd be very surprised if anyone else in the country has had record that good over any recent season and a half. So you want a hoodoo he's ended? The one where we rarely get used like a blow up doll these days is good for me.

 

[indospurs]

There is time and space there to be exploited. We're just not capable of doing that often enough. We did occasionally find Alli, Son and Eriksen in a bit of space around the box. We did find Sissoko with some good passes. We did occasionally manage to put Walker and Rose in some space. We just didn't do it often enough.

Doing that often against good hard working well organized teams is more difficult. But it's possible given quality in central midfield. Quality we sadly lack.

We got pressured into making a mistake, a killer pass by Herrera, and a quality finish by a quality player. Much like the quality finish by Pedro that got chavs back into the game v us.

Wanyama had one clear, gob stopping chance in a tight game - and fluffed it, badly. Eriksen had two chances, the first was the best chance. A game of fine margins, we couldn't capitalize.

 

[Mr_B]

Man U are a top 5 side by default, there's a reason why they were 6 points behind us, yes six points before today;s game. they're also a bogey team of ours and some avb luck aside, we just don't win up there but i was confident of a draw. But we never looked like scoring. Where was our pace from last season ? We look so sluggish going forward, most of our goals are coming from set pieces. Its time to make some tough decisions, players like Alli shouldn't be guaranteed a game, maybe its complacency that explains his poor performance, Vanayama and sissoko both look lightweight addition, what do they do? We'll beat Hull on wednesday without breaking sweat but for me, the honeymoon is over for Poch, I won't tolerate another sub performance against a "top" 5 team, we're shadow of the team we were last year.