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Tim Sherwood…gone \o/
- Thread starter Gutter Boy
- Start date
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Regarding Parker and us needing a 'DM' I think all teams need someone in that position as almost everyone plays a forward 'between the lines' now. I don't believe that player needs to be mainly defence-minded (especially not at the cost of passing vision/ability) but they need to be there. Leaving a gap is suicidal as it has shown to be for us, we're incredibly lucky that we haven't been punished more.
I still love the style of football, what's changed is the environment around us and my realisation of what that means for us.
I've always been stuck with this grand (and naive) notion that we could gradually scrape our way to the top, bit by bit. When the Hudd/Modric midfield got us to 4th, City hadn't got their act together yet - now they have and I don't see that changing for a while. Ironically they had a lot of foreign players settling at once and it took a while for them to click.
The next time we got 4th, Chelsea had their worst season since they turned on cheat mode.
I really thought that we could pick up gems like Modric/Berbatov/Bale and eventually build a team that can compete. The problem is that not only do the richest clubs stockpile all the best talent, but they're also buying up the best scouting networks too. They then force clubs like us into selling their best players and we're back to building a new team again.
The thing that's becoming increasingly clear is that teams finish in the same order as their financial ability (barring ridiculous events like Dalglish) and that leaves us in 6th on average. And this is where my issue with Sherwood is (let's ignore personality for the meantime) - I don't think Spurs + Sherwood is better than City + Pellegrini, Chelsea + Mourinho or Arsenal + Wenger. I'm not sure about Moyes yet, but Utd have the draw to bring in anyone they want. I'm not even sure that Spurs + Sherwood is better than Liverpool + Rodgers (I'm edging towards the fact that we are).
But it's not all bad news. To some extent, this country is still in the dark ages when it comes to football, many still think there's something unique about the PL that foreigners just don't get. That means there's a gap to exploit before the others do, but I don't think it can happen if we keep swapping managers.
Solid point, I don't think so.
But that was the Hudd - Modric midfield, it was special and required a lot. But it isn't what Sherwood is doing and it seems to me almost opposite to what AVB was doing.
I suppose you could say Bentaleb in the Hudd role and Dembele in the Modric role is somewhat close to a similar line-up. And yes, Bentaleb is still lacking defensively, although his added mobility and pace makes him less dependent on positioning compared to Hudd. Modric was brilliant and his work rate was top notch, he really was a lot better defensively than he generally got credit for. It was key to making that partnership with Hudd work. But I think many of the same things are true about Dembele, he does a lot of things really well defensively and is (like Modric) very dependable in that he will always get back right side of the ball.
My point was more on in style and choice of players. We both enjoyed the Modric - Huddlestone partnership because it was a choice of skill, technical ability, passing etc over athleticism and defensive ability. It was the choice where we "managed" defensively while excelling on the ball. It was in many ways the opposite of the Parker* approach you disliked so strongly. Introducing Bentaleb, along with reintroducing Adebayor and playing Eriksen as part of a midfield 4 with more attacking than defensive qualities seems to me like a shift in emphasis and it's a shift in the direction I like. A shift more towards the Modric - Huddlestone side of the spectrum and away from the Parker* end of the spectrum.
I just don't get why you don't like and appreciate this shift.
*Pretty please, for the love of ghod I'm not trying to restart "the great Parker debate of '11". If you disagree about these descriptions just leave it, or bump an old Parker thread if you feel the need to redo that old classic. I'm using this example because I know what Scara thinks about this issue and there's common ground there between us that I think is helpful as the basis for further discussion.
Regarding Parker and us needing a 'DM' I think all teams need someone in that position as almost everyone plays a forward 'between the lines' now. I don't believe that player needs to be mainly defence-minded (especially not at the cost of passing vision/ability) but they need to be there. Leaving a gap is suicidal as it has shown to be for us, we're incredibly lucky that we haven't been punished more.
I still love the style of football, what's changed is the environment around us and my realisation of what that means for us.
I've always been stuck with this grand (and naive) notion that we could gradually scrape our way to the top, bit by bit. When the Hudd/Modric midfield got us to 4th, City hadn't got their act together yet - now they have and I don't see that changing for a while. Ironically they had a lot of foreign players settling at once and it took a while for them to click.
The next time we got 4th, Chelsea had their worst season since they turned on cheat mode.
I really thought that we could pick up gems like Modric/Berbatov/Bale and eventually build a team that can compete. The problem is that not only do the richest clubs stockpile all the best talent, but they're also buying up the best scouting networks too. They then force clubs like us into selling their best players and we're back to building a new team again.
The thing that's becoming increasingly clear is that teams finish in the same order as their financial ability (barring ridiculous events like Dalglish) and that leaves us in 6th on average. And this is where my issue with Sherwood is (let's ignore personality for the meantime) - I don't think Spurs + Sherwood is better than City + Pellegrini, Chelsea + Mourinho or Arsenal + Wenger. I'm not sure about Moyes yet, but Utd have the draw to bring in anyone they want. I'm not even sure that Spurs + Sherwood is better than Liverpool + Rodgers (I'm edging towards the fact that we are).
But it's not all bad news. To some extent, this country is still in the dark ages when it comes to football, many still think there's something unique about the PL that foreigners just don't get. That means there's a gap to exploit before the others do, but I don't think it can happen if we keep swapping managers.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
I see what you're saying, and I totally agree that we need to do something 'different' if we are going to compete against clubs with better finances.
I guess what I am hoping, and think may happen, is that Sherwood and all his 'forward thinking' ideas are far enough ahead of their time that it gives us the advantage that we need.
I see what you're saying, and I totally agree that we need to do something 'different' if we are going to compete against clubs with better finances.
I guess what I am hoping, and think may happen, is that Sherwood and all his 'forward thinking' ideas are far enough ahead of their time that it gives us the advantage that we need.
milo
Jack L. Jones
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
I agree with all of that. Hopefully our advantage lies in our academy.
I agree with all of that. Hopefully our advantage lies in our academy.
ALtottenham_hotspur
Jamie Redknapp
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Sadly unless something changes in football with regards to money I can't see us ever winning the league with levy in charge. That's not a dig at levy it's just the amount of money that City, Chelsea have spent to win the title we won't ever spend that. Unless we can get a new stadium which will increase our turnover I think 5th or 6th is about right for us. I don't like thinking like that maybe one season in 5 we could steal 4th based of law of averages.
Hard to keep positive I heard Jose say Chelsea May spend another 10-150m in the summer, if u don't laugh u wud cry!
Sadly unless something changes in football with regards to money I can't see us ever winning the league with levy in charge. That's not a dig at levy it's just the amount of money that City, Chelsea have spent to win the title we won't ever spend that. Unless we can get a new stadium which will increase our turnover I think 5th or 6th is about right for us. I don't like thinking like that maybe one season in 5 we could steal 4th based of law of averages.
Hard to keep positive I heard Jose say Chelsea May spend another 10-150m in the summer, if u don't laugh u wud cry!
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
So you're saying you don't feel pity for him?
I'd say that makes you an unusually cruel person. That or incapable of feeling empathy, something I can quite understand.
So you're saying you don't feel pity for him?
I'd say that makes you an unusually cruel person. That or incapable of feeling empathy, something I can quite understand.
screen nayim
John Gorman
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
He's won the EPL as a player, won plaudits for his work at the club at the junior level and now has had a surprisingly good start to his senior management career, all whilst earning a large fortune along the way.
And yet, and yet, you can still find it within yourself to pity him for having an estuary accent? I'm sure he'd be grateful, if only we could find a way of letting him know.
Or you could just recalibrate your snob-o-meter.
He's won the EPL as a player, won plaudits for his work at the club at the junior level and now has had a surprisingly good start to his senior management career, all whilst earning a large fortune along the way.
And yet, and yet, you can still find it within yourself to pity him for having an estuary accent? I'm sure he'd be grateful, if only we could find a way of letting him know.
Or you could just recalibrate your snob-o-meter.
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
I don't pity his playing career, it's the class he'll always be trapped in. It's not impossible to respect one and pity the other. I respect Bill Gates's achievements and charitable contributions, but I pity his looks and lack of ability in social situations. I respect Stephen Hawkins's incredible intellect, yet I pity his physical shortcomings. See?
I don't pity his playing career, it's the class he'll always be trapped in. It's not impossible to respect one and pity the other. I respect Bill Gates's achievements and charitable contributions, but I pity his looks and lack of ability in social situations. I respect Stephen Hawkins's incredible intellect, yet I pity his physical shortcomings. See?
Armchair Expert
Vedran Corluka
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
If Tim Sherwood works out long term there is also a huge potential upside to his tenure ship: longevity.
I think AVB did his prospects of surviving the maulings no good at all by making public his various desires: participating in Dhaka Rally, managing in Brazil, publicly making noises about his friendship with the PSG owners and his intention to leave football early.
Harry Redknapp also did the same: openly flirting with England and his age was always going to be a factor in his long term employment potential. Neither manager gave you the feeling they were available for the long term.
Should Sherwood become a successful manager, we may have finally found someone who could potentially stay for 10-15 years. He is the perfect age, is someone who will definitely remain in football as long as possible and I can't see where else he would potentially move to. Cynics might say Arsenal, but I would counter that by saying it seems like he has built a power base, and forged a relationship with a Chairman, that gives him an incredible authority that in time could grow to the sort of influence wielded by the like of Ferguson and Wenger at their respective clubs.
If he went to another club he would be on a hiding to nothing like any other manager.
I see Spurs and Sherwood as a good match in another regard - as Sherwoods stature as a manger (hopefully) grows so should the club: new stadium, fruits of academy coming to (hopefully) bear fruit.
Spurs, Sherwood and youth could be a very exciting and organic shared growth and it could all work out very nicely indeed.
The above is all subjective, and we should have course sack Sherwood in may following a nose dive in form and be back to square one with a new chap in charge next season.
Seen in positive terms however, I think this could shape into different facets of Tottenham flourishing in unison. And that is what we have all been craving, since, well, as long as I can remember (1991 onwards).
On a separate point, namely his accent, I think it could be pivotal in our success. We are Tottenham, a London club, and I want as many London accents around us as possible. Why? Because having London running through the club is the best tonic to remedy our players being picked off by other clubs.
If we can bring London lads through into a London team with London mentality they may actually feel loyalty and stay: the Man Utd team that conquered all and sundry had a Manchester back bone. Ferguson was trying it again with lads like Cleverly and Welbeck. Liverpool have hung on during their periods of mediocrity because of 'Scouse loyalty' from players like Fowler, Gerrard and Carragher.
Modric was always going to leave, Suarez will leave. Gerrard stayed. Would Player X from Edmonton who has come through the academy and now plays in the top flight for a club located in one of the best cities in the world with a true London identity be less likely to leave than a croatian star? I belive so.
So in short, for me, the more ****neys the better. Also, i subscribe to the school of thought that Tim is a lot more progressive than he lets on anyway.
If Tim Sherwood works out long term there is also a huge potential upside to his tenure ship: longevity.
I think AVB did his prospects of surviving the maulings no good at all by making public his various desires: participating in Dhaka Rally, managing in Brazil, publicly making noises about his friendship with the PSG owners and his intention to leave football early.
Harry Redknapp also did the same: openly flirting with England and his age was always going to be a factor in his long term employment potential. Neither manager gave you the feeling they were available for the long term.
Should Sherwood become a successful manager, we may have finally found someone who could potentially stay for 10-15 years. He is the perfect age, is someone who will definitely remain in football as long as possible and I can't see where else he would potentially move to. Cynics might say Arsenal, but I would counter that by saying it seems like he has built a power base, and forged a relationship with a Chairman, that gives him an incredible authority that in time could grow to the sort of influence wielded by the like of Ferguson and Wenger at their respective clubs.
If he went to another club he would be on a hiding to nothing like any other manager.
I see Spurs and Sherwood as a good match in another regard - as Sherwoods stature as a manger (hopefully) grows so should the club: new stadium, fruits of academy coming to (hopefully) bear fruit.
Spurs, Sherwood and youth could be a very exciting and organic shared growth and it could all work out very nicely indeed.
The above is all subjective, and we should have course sack Sherwood in may following a nose dive in form and be back to square one with a new chap in charge next season.
Seen in positive terms however, I think this could shape into different facets of Tottenham flourishing in unison. And that is what we have all been craving, since, well, as long as I can remember (1991 onwards).
On a separate point, namely his accent, I think it could be pivotal in our success. We are Tottenham, a London club, and I want as many London accents around us as possible. Why? Because having London running through the club is the best tonic to remedy our players being picked off by other clubs.
If we can bring London lads through into a London team with London mentality they may actually feel loyalty and stay: the Man Utd team that conquered all and sundry had a Manchester back bone. Ferguson was trying it again with lads like Cleverly and Welbeck. Liverpool have hung on during their periods of mediocrity because of 'Scouse loyalty' from players like Fowler, Gerrard and Carragher.
Modric was always going to leave, Suarez will leave. Gerrard stayed. Would Player X from Edmonton who has come through the academy and now plays in the top flight for a club located in one of the best cities in the world with a true London identity be less likely to leave than a croatian star? I belive so.
So in short, for me, the more ****neys the better. Also, i subscribe to the school of thought that Tim is a lot more progressive than he lets on anyway.
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Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Maybe his mates in the red tops will project him into the England job after the WC?
Getting 5th-7th with us makes him the outstanding candidate (in a field of none).
Maybe his mates in the red tops will project him into the England job after the WC?
Getting 5th-7th with us makes him the outstanding candidate (in a field of none).
Armchair Expert
Vedran Corluka
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
I would counter that by saying he wouldn't take it. For someone young, hungry and clearly ambitious, I'm sure international football will be of no interest to him whatsoever. Someone of his age will crave the day to day management of club football. He's clearly also interested in player development, international football is, or should be, merely about picking form players, and is suited to older managers winding down their careers, not trying to ignite them.
I would counter that by saying he wouldn't take it. For someone young, hungry and clearly ambitious, I'm sure international football will be of no interest to him whatsoever. Someone of his age will crave the day to day management of club football. He's clearly also interested in player development, international football is, or should be, merely about picking form players, and is suited to older managers winding down their careers, not trying to ignite them.
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
nice post AE
re England - have read both Ramsay and Ehigou be quite critical over the England set up from grass roots through to the first team squad - it wouldn't be a surprise to me for Sherwood to be of the same thinking (in that he seems to regard technical ability quite highly) - think he'd know that until young players are being produced in the right manner the top job will ultimately be a short lived and pointless task.
nice post AE
re England - have read both Ramsay and Ehigou be quite critical over the England set up from grass roots through to the first team squad - it wouldn't be a surprise to me for Sherwood to be of the same thinking (in that he seems to regard technical ability quite highly) - think he'd know that until young players are being produced in the right manner the top job will ultimately be a short lived and pointless task.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
I don't disagree.
But remember Redknapp is his mentor and it’s the biggest regret of his career. Could he project this on his apprentice. It used to be the job you never got offered twice.
There will also be the powerful clamour of tabloids. They'd paint him as traitor for not being interested. England expects and all that.
AVB managed internationally early in his career, so it's not just an old man's game.
I don't disagree.
But remember Redknapp is his mentor and it’s the biggest regret of his career. Could he project this on his apprentice. It used to be the job you never got offered twice.
There will also be the powerful clamour of tabloids. They'd paint him as traitor for not being interested. England expects and all that.
AVB managed internationally early in his career, so it's not just an old man's game.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Father and son aren't they. Or is that Jamie? I get Jamie and Timmeh mixed up - both crap midfielders well known for running that terrible Icon magazine (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2008/jan/27/8).
Father and son aren't they. Or is that Jamie? I get Jamie and Timmeh mixed up - both crap midfielders well known for running that terrible Icon magazine (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2008/jan/27/8).
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Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
what i mean is: you often refer to them as mentor/apprentice - i was just interested to know whether this is anything more than Sherwood being appointed in his role at Spurs whilst Redknapp was here and it's a case of 2+2 = Relegation fears ( ) or that there's more too it than that - have they worked together previously? spoken about each other publicly in those terms etc
what i mean is: you often refer to them as mentor/apprentice - i was just interested to know whether this is anything more than Sherwood being appointed in his role at Spurs whilst Redknapp was here and it's a case of 2+2 = Relegation fears (
) or that there's more too it than that - have they worked together previously? spoken about each other publicly in those terms etc
glorygloryeze
Jack Jull
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Aren't Sherwood and Jamie Redknapp business partners or something?
Anybody got any detail on that? I think it read it on another website sometime in the last 2 months
Aren't Sherwood and Jamie Redknapp business partners or something?
Anybody got any detail on that? I think it read it on another website sometime in the last 2 months
I
indianspur
Guest
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
:ross: the British Virgin Islands???????oh my GHod you really are up AVBs ****.....AVB managed internationally :ross: =D>
I
indianspur
Guest
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
yep they are. I hear that Mourinho cannot wait to take over once he departs from Chelski, but the BVI would rather have Wenger. The big names are lining up for that job