Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Seedy Ron]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

didn't we set a club clean sheet record under AVB

also as we won so many games by the odd goal we must have been doing something right defensively last season

Nah, all luck.

You'd think now he's been sacked he could be given a smidgen of credit for the things his team did OK at, but apparently not.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

One of the challenges as a manager in any field is communicating complex information in simple ways.

I just employ intelligent people - makes it much easier.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

personal preference I guess, personally I'd rather three 0-0s than two 5-4 defeats and a 5-4 win, being difficult to beat is what wins league titles and you'd be confident in your defense for the next game rather than terrified of a what happens if you go goal shy

I appreciate that many people would prefer the other scenario though

 

[spurs' magna carter]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Been posted on SC, very interesting read.

In my role as assistant U16 coach at Tottenham, there is a clear DNA outlined at the club through out the academy ages.

That DNA is laid out and passed down from Tim Sherwood, Head of Football Development, John McDermott, Head of Academy, and the wonderfully experienced Chris Ramsey, who is Senior Professional Phase Coach.

The way that Tottenham teams play is clear and all the coaches know what is expected of them. The emphasis is on technique at a very early age and the idea is to try and produce players who can progress into the first team, or go on and make a living in the game.

.................................

At Spurs winning a Youth game by being safe, unimaginative, and technically poor, doesn't sit well at all. I am interested in how many of that team will progress into the Tottenham first team, or have a career in football in another first team.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...and-need-DNA-continue-fail.html#ixzz2qFxyVBWp

The second I heard Sherwood was linked with the job I did not want him near it. But since he's taking over I've begun to warm to him, he keeps things simple and is very honest, never being afraid of speaking his mind whilst telling things how they are. I also like the football we are playing and I feel he made a good point recently about not faffing around with formations as you'll always be out of place when you lose the ball and also having a rigid formation can make the players have less guile around the box, something I agree with as it can restrict players who are good finding space as they constantly told to stay where they are whilst they can see a tasty packet of space there for the taking.

Also our academy is arguably one of the best in the UK, if not Europe and seems to be him that gets a lot credit for it.

I thought what Ehiogu says about their being too much focus on the results the youth teams have, not the actual development of the players. It's funny as I was thinking today about how with the academy what is most important is that they produce players for 1st team, not how many matches they win. Just look Chelsea for example, I read during the summer that their academy has won the FA youth cup twice (2010 & 2012) whilst reaching the final last year yet how many of those players are in the squad and how many have made a first team appearance? Yet look our lot, never won it or a trophy yet already we've seen Townsend, Carrol, Caulker, Livermore, Kane, Bentaleb (ok not a exactly come through academy but not far off) etc giving a chance whilst having a lot of success with the loan system.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I just employ intelligent people - makes it much easier.

Very few managers have a team of people who are all at the same level or take on information at the same speed. I envy you if you are one of the lucky few.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Jesus H Christ, are we still having the class/intellectual debate?

Under AVB we were timid, toothless, devoid of any flair or creativity going forward, looked dodgy at the back despite employing an unbelievably negative system. He overcomplicated things to the extreme. I'm sorry, if he was such a brilliant manager then he wouldn't have alienated players at Chelsea and got booted out within a few months and then moved on to Spurs and again be sacked early into his reign because of the same failings at Chelsea i.e. slow, ponderous buildup play and freezing players out of the team/squad.

Under Sherwood we actually get more than one player into the box when attacking, are attacking teams with more intent not just waiting until the opposition is tired in the 82nd minuted and 55 seconds when it's the optimal time to break down the opposition's structure and are playing with a sense of freedom that the last manager stifled.

Was Alex Ferguson an intellectual? He knew the game inside out and knew how to tactically outthink his managerial counterparts, but he was also a no nonsense type who also encouraged an attacking style of play. He didn't feel the need to let everyone know how many big words he had in his vocabulary and bore the media to tears with his interviews.

 

[Cochise]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

RE Chelsea: I'm not certain about judging their youth development program by the FA youth cup. I'm not bad mouthing their young players, but even at the youth levels they are purchasing young talent from abroad that have shown great things already.

So far as coaching goes, I was chatting with a friend the other day and I likened it to being a teacher/lecturer. At school and uni I have studied under some very intellectual people who have 1st class degrees etc and yet they struggle to break down a topic for others to understand so continue in a terms that only the brightest 10% may take to. Yet the teachers and lecturers who didn't exactly fly through their degrees were able to break down topics where the majority took the information on board. To me that is a representation of AVB and Sherwood. AVB was intelligent yet it was obvious in our play that the players didn't grasp his ideas. Sherwood has had less time and yet we have looked like a different team, presumably because he can get his ideas across better.

The coach has to break down the plan into easy to follow guidelines, or else most of the team will struggle to understand. I do agree that many players won't understand the in depth tactics but I do think that with time and the right direction they can eventually execute the master plan. Maybe it's a case of baby steps to begin with, starting with the basic frame work before using that newly learned knowledge as a base for something greater. Maybe AVB was expecting us to run before we even had learnt to walk and now we see TS moving us up from a crawl to a walk. Doesn't mean he's less intelligent, just that he has a different method.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's a very real divide - you can see it pretty clearly on this forum, and as this place requires a computer/phone to access it, we've already filtered out the least intelligent.

I believe it's also the way many English footballers think too and that's where the divide becomes a real problem. English players will, like many fans, automatically trust someone like Redknapp (sorry, but he's the best example), whereas someone like AVB who doesn't hide his intelligence is automatically thought of as untrustworthy.

So how does a manager put across complicated, intelligent tactical ideas to the foreign contingent of a team without alienating the traditionalists? That's a genuine question, I have no idea!

It's a simple answer, however a rather more complicated series of ways to get it done.

AVB's biggest issue was lack of personability/man-management skills when under pressure, further, knowing how to incorporate short-term compromise to achieve long-term goal. He was, in essence, a 0-60 bloke when the way most situations are when you walk into them, you have to gradually get there. Admittedly you prepare the engine/vehicle early to be able to take that move, but it's crucial that you integrate and use the parts you're given. Ironically I thought last season his work was magnificent, absolutely superb, as he did not get everyone he wanted yet managed to squeeze productivity out of virtually the entire squad. This convinced me he was over his man-management issues.

Alas, it seems as though with more dingdonging around behind the scenes his fuse got short and he reverted to old ways/found himself engaging in old petty behaviours. I think he's actually about a decade younger than his abilities are right now, and as such, his experience and learning curve needs 10 years to allow his talent to mature and find it's way through via a balanced, assured and confident manager/coach. Pelligrini's probably not an amazing example simply because he has great talent to work with, but he never panicked, managed to work with everyone in the squad and is finding the results turning his way.

I think players will absolutely take any instruction on board so long as they trust the manager. And that trust comes from man-management/the human side. Mourinho excels in this dept, and 'tis why Chelski are in with a shout of a title they aren't really good enough to win; he has them not just believing but FIGHTING for each other, and this DESPITE the Mata thing. Martinez is another who has the balance, though again, he's done his time here and understands the culture.

I think AVB had a rudimentary understanding of the culture. And as we tell any student, you can only properly break rules if you learn them in the first place.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I just employ intelligent people - makes it much easier.

It does, but intelligence and belief are two different issues. You can be supremely intelligent but lack belief/confidence, and if the manager/boss cannot impart that, then it falls apart however smart you both are.

As you know I liked AVB, but I am always left finding it ironic that such a smart man could not master the fact that short-term compromises can buy you time to achieve long-term gains. His behaviour over Adebayor this season were curiously bereft of any intelligence at all if we are to assume he wanted to keep his job at Spurs (which is by no means something we should automatically assume)...

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I dont know if people realise it but we're coming across as some stuck up , patronising and condescending bunch on this thread.

this whole intellectual angle is about as arrogant and potentially as ignorant as a human being can get.

how do people even judge others they have never met like that? its one thing to question someone's ability intellectually in a particular category but to categorically dismiss them as dumb and create a divide just cause of difference of opinion or lack on insight to what is going on

i mean dudes, really:lol:

actually forget that, i'm book marking these pages for when i eventually descend to that level and do it. i need ammunition to state my case

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree with the above post to an extent (perhaps not the ferocity of it, which as ever is disheartening)…


I find that judging 'intelligence' is a very arbitrary thing. One man's intelligent is another man's fool. And visa-versa.

From what I have seen, the real thrust of some of this is 'colloquial' versus 'non-colloquial'…that is to say, a 'plain speaking man with a London accent' versus a 'sophisticated-sounding man with another type of accent'…

It's always dangerous territory.

I have to repeat the personal irony I feel when I realize that as 'smart' a young man as he undoubtably is, AVB in the end failed to bring everyone onto his page. Again, he either failed to OR gave up because of other matters leaving him not wanting to.

One thing re: Sherwood. He is a smart, tough, uncompromising guy.

I might not always like what he does but I respect him for doing things his way.

It's an interesting ride.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

ah yes, one of the kingpins setting me up as per usual. of course whatever they say becomes reality

is it too hard for someone to just side step another human being? especially it helps everyone? not unless they are trying to get a reaction, which they probably will tbh

 

[Daisuk]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I dont know if people realise it but we're coming across as some stuck up , patronising and condescending bunch on this thread.

this whole intellectual angle is about as arrogant and potentially as ignorant as a human being can get.

how do people even judge others they have never met like that? its one thing to question someone's ability intellectually in a particular category but to categorically dismiss them as dumb and create a divide just cause of difference of opinion or lack on insight to what is going on

i mean dudes, really:lol:

actually forget that, i'm book marking these pages for when i eventually descend to that level and do it. i need ammunition to state my case

I couldn't agree more. Thank you for posting that.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree with the above post to an extent (perhaps not the ferocity of it, which as ever is disheartening)…


I find that judging 'intelligence' is a very arbitrary thing. One man's intelligent is another man's fool. And visa-versa.

From what I have seen, the real thrust of some of this is 'colloquial' versus 'non-colloquial'…that is to say, a 'plain speaking man with a London accent' versus a 'sophisticated-sounding man with another type of accent'…

It's always dangerous territory.

I have to repeat the personal irony I feel when I realize that as 'smart' a young man as he undoubtably is, AVB in the end failed to bring everyone onto his page. Again, he either failed to OR gave up because of other matters leaving him not wanting to.

One thing re: Sherwood. He is a smart, tough, uncompromising guy.

I might not always like what he does but I respect him for doing things his way.

It's an interesting ride.

I think AVB gave up, or rather he did not like how business post Bale went down and as such didn't want to be here anymore. Certainly not on someone else's terms. Following the summer there are questions on Ade, not backing him in other ways and he obviously thought he didn't need it the hassle anymore.

You can see in his quotes now, he wants a club that backs the coach properly and didn't get that with us. He proved last season he could compromise and adapt and massage egos that he didn't really want to be here but I don't think he was willing to do it for a second year and why should he? In his mind he's proved himself last season and should have gotten more trust to do things his way this year but wasn't ever going to get it with the way Levy runs the club.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What I would say to bring it back to Sherwood is, in a political sense he is probably as intelligent as they come.

He's the type of guy that it's hard not to admire, for the fact that although he has some talent, there's many people that have talent but he makes damn sure he's going to be heard. He makes sure he is listened to and he makes sure he seizes his opportunity and takes his place in the world as he wants it.

I think it's good to have someone like that at our club in the top job (not so much behind the scenes) because he will be ruthless in the quest for success.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I dont know if people realise it but we're coming across as some stuck up , patronising and condescending bunch on this thread.

I usually do, I'm used to it.

how do people even judge others they have never met like that?

The more people say on public, the more we have to go on.

 

[Rorschach]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I do get the political side of things and from comments being made since AVB's departure there seems to have been friction all around, but fundamentally AVB failed because his footballing mantra was flawed. I say that as one from the pro-AVB camp too. I was disgusted at the sacking (or whatever name you would like to call it) as it stank again of short-termism. However AVB's 'playbook' had a few pages missing or perhaps pages that needed rewriting. Trying to recreate a team to his Porto template did and was not working and AVB's inflexibility cost him his job, IMO. Friction or no friction if AVB had different results versus pool, city and west ham he probably still would be here. Anyway that's my read on it.

I'm liking Sherwood too btw.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I usually do, I'm used to it.



The more people say on public, the more we have to go on.

dude, dont take it in a bad way. as you know i respect you for standing up for what you believe

i do however think its slightly warped towards the side of say privileged. that isnt fair....you're condemning a whole bunch of people just for the fact they you got the luck of the draw socially and genetically

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Very few managers have a team of people who are all at the same level or take on information at the same speed. I envy you if you are one of the lucky few.

It makes recruitment incredibly tough, but it's worth it. I always employ at least one fewer person than others would and use that money to pay those I do employ more.

4 or 5 very intelligent people can do much more work than 6 average ones and will cost about the same.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

dude, dont take it in a bad way. as you know i respect you for standing up for what you believe

i do however think its slightly warped towards the side of say privileged. that isnt fair....you're condemning a whole bunch of people just for the fact they you got the luck of the draw socially and genetically

Not socially, no.

Genetically? Maybe. Obviously I feel incredibly uncomfortable with an opinion that some people are born 'better' than others - that's not quite what it is, but it's incredibly difficult to describe what it actually is.

I guess the simplest description is that I believe in an intelligence-based meritocracy. Is that condemning people for accidents of genetics? I don't honestly know. Also, is condemning the right word? I have no issue with describing someone as being better at lifting something up than me, but the moment we start talking about being better than someone at thinking, it all gets uncomfortable.