Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Gutter Boy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

For me Saturday's game showed perfectly that if you dont put in the effor then talent can still get overrun by a not below averate team who are trying their hardest. With this 4-4-2 formation that Tim is playing the Full backs are going to have to work very hard all game. We need them to get up and down the line to not only cover the opposition but also provide some width. This in turn allows are wide players to tuck in and get 4 against a possible three or at least have more number to counter an oppostion with three in the centre.

In the first half on saturday Moussa and Nabil were getting overun a little as Chamakh was dropping into midfield picking up the ball and playing in the runners. This was working a treat for Palace as our players simply not working hard enough to make the 4-4-2 work. Second half he got the full backs to push on and work the side lines. This not only held back Palace's wide players but allowed Eriksen to tuck in more and Aaron as well and or us to get more bodies in the centre. What worries me a little about this is that a lot of Premiership teams play with 1 striker now and unless we are at it every game we could get over run in periods.

Also at the moment the quality of the wide play we are getting from Rose and Walker with crosses into the box is abject at best. I lost count of the times Ade just watched the ball sail over his head. They really do need to work on their technique or their fitness so that when they arrive in that position they are not too shattered to put in the required Quality.

Im not a fan of 4-4-2 with this squad and with Losing Defoe, Soldado being off form and Ade being a hissy fit away from strolling around the game. But that said 4-4-2 can work against the three man midfield if the team work hard enough.

That's really good analysis.

I thought it was frightening how badly our midfield was overrun by the worst team in the league. Yes our quality showed through in the end, but we were out-maneuvered by Pulis. I think we're going to be in for a big shock come City, Everton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine this winter. Remember that apart from a crumbling United and Arsenal's reserves, we've not had a proper test yet.

 

[ringo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It may be the translation, but I've been more impressed with what Sherwood has had to say in a few weeks than AVB in his entire time here. AVB was well meaning but I think he suffered from not having played football at a decent level, and from adopting an overly theoretical and considered approach to the game. That is not to say that people who haven't played pro football can't manage, I'm sure some can, I just don't think AVB was one of them.

It is early days yet, and Sherwood has yet to really be put to the sword and tested, but judging by our recent performances with the limited pool of players available we could have a managerial find on our hands. We will see.

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

GB does have a point re the anti-intellect approach in England in football, largely grounded in the fact (no offense) you guys need to get over your class/social issues (as seen with the additional hostility towards the "prawn sandwich" phalanx), general consensus is football is simple (non intellectual), and only the working class can be true fans.

Anyway, side conversation.

Problem with the game against Palace was we were out committed by Palace in 1st half, we addressed that in 2nd, but did not address the defensive naivety for the entire game, make no mistake, if that was City, we would have likely lost that 6-2.

And I think that is where the TS doubters have concerns, great to see us win, great to see us score, but defensively we look very vulnerable and until our front line starts truly firing, we aren't going to outscore any top level teams.

 

[Craig_J]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

GB does have a point re the anti-intellect approach in England in football, largely grounded in the fact (no offense) you guys need to get over your class/social issues (as seen with the additional hostility towards the "prawn sandwich" phalanx), general consensus is football is simple (non intellectual), and only the working class can be true fans.

Anyway, side conversation.

Problem with the game against Palace was we were out committed by Palace in 1st half, we addressed that in 2nd, but did not address the defensive naivety for the entire game, make no mistake, if that was City, we would have likely lost that 6-2.

And I think that is where the TS doubters have concerns, great to see us win, great to see us score, but defensively we look very vulnerable and until our front line starts truly firing, we aren't going to outscore any top level teams.

Where did that all come from? Also don't like the way you class intellectual and working class into separate groups.

Yes football is intellectual and I'm not the sort of fan who pretends to be some master tactican. But and this is in response to this post as well....

I was a massive Sceptic of Sherwoods, however I am coming round to like him. I like the fact that he is fairly blunt and talks about football like it is not a science, it is a fairly straightforward game. Yes there is science involved, nutrician, training, managing injuries etc.....however, to me his comments are logical and refreshing. AVB used to annoy me when he waffled on, like it was some mystical science - it isn't.

If you have talented players that are willing to work hard (look at Man U for the last 20 years under Fergie) then you'll get results. Obviously you work on tactics, but essentially if you have 11 good players against 6 good players and 5 mediocre players (and the good 11 work hard) they should win regardless of formation.

I know people on here were not Harry's greatest fans, however, he spoke of it being a simple game and he was a great motivator. We had our best spell (arguably since the Keith Burkinshaw days) under him. Tim seems to be able to motivate (2nd half on Saturday against Palace is an example), he keeps things fairly simple - maybe he is the talent that everyone who knows him sees?

I would happily backtrack on my dislike of Tim being appointed if we have success.....thats all I want, Spurs to be successful - and initial impressions are positive.

Just because Sherwood doesn't speak in complicated ways to us doesn't mean that he's simply saying "go and get at them boys" he'll still have his opinions on the game and methods, as will Redknapp. A magican doesn't come out and tell you everything he's planning on doing or just did. A football manager shouldn't be expected to come out to us and say a load of stuff. Fergie never went into too much detail during his managerial career. Even Mourinhio hasn't dewelled too much on it.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

GB does have a point re the anti-intellect approach in England in football, largely grounded in the fact (no offense) you guys need to get over your class/social issues (as seen with the additional hostility towards the "prawn sandwich" phalanx), general consensus is football is simple (non intellectual), and only the working class can be true fans.

Anyway, side conversation.

Problem with the game against Palace was we were out committed by Palace in 1st half, we addressed that in 2nd, but did not address the defensive naivety for the entire game, make no mistake, if that was City, we would have likely lost that 6-2.

And I think that is where the TS doubters have concerns, great to see us win, great to see us score, but defensively we look very vulnerable and until our front line starts truly firing, we aren't going to outscore any top level teams.

We're defensively weak because our line is too deep and our midfield are too stretched to offer decent protection.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

We're defensively weak because our line is too deep and our midfield are too stretched to offer decent protection.

We looked just as week when we were getting bum raped 0-5 and 0-6 playing a 4-2-3-1 system.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Football is not simple. I hate that saying. Football is chess, but with a lot more squares. Blimey, even my sunday league team has a system, a handful of different formations and a tactics book.

The hostility towards an intellectual approach to football is what has turned the English national team and English players into the sick man of Europe over the last 25 years. Wenger has led an honorable campaign to counter it, but by-and-large he has failed (although his remit was never to prevent the death of English football).

Sherwood is just 1990s retro. Gerry Francis but not as smart. He's blunt because he's not capable of being refined or shrewd.

Explain to me how Wenger takes an intellectual approach to Football.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Explain to me how Wenger's takes an intellectual approach to Arsenal games.

well he speaks French for a start, and there is the specs he wears

 

[Craig_J]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

well he speaks French for a start, and there is the specs he wears

Ahh but do those specs help him see the incident?

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Ahh but do those specs help him see the incident?

errrrrrrrrrrr.................

 

[Briddo1882]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Where did that all come from? Also don't like the way you class intellectual and working class into separate groups.

Just because Sherwood doesn't speak in complicated ways to us doesn't mean that he's simply saying "go and get at them boys" he'll still have his opinions on the game and methods, as will Redknapp. A magican doesn't come out and tell you everything he's planning on doing or just did. A football manager shouldn't be expected to come out to us and say a load of stuff. Fergie never went into too much detail during his managerial career. Even Mourinhio hasn't dewelled too much on it.

Please don't misunderstand me Craig, I'm not saying that is how Sherwood is operating, all I am trying to get at is that he's not overcomplicating stuff. AVB (IMHO) tried to overcomplicate things and make football a science, it isn't. Yes, there are tactics etc. but essentially it doesn't need to be broken down into phases of play and all that rubbish.

 

[Nigeyman]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

GB does have a point re the anti-intellect approach in England in football, largely grounded in the fact (no offense) you guys need to get over your class/social issues (as seen with the additional hostility towards the "prawn sandwich" phalanx), general consensus is football is simple (non intellectual), and only the working class can be true fans.

WTF is this!!!!

Give me until after the Villa game.....I can feel a rant coming on in a few hours.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Please don't misunderstand me Craig, I'm not saying that is how Sherwood is operating, all I am trying to get at is that he's not overcomplicating stuff. AVB (IMHO) tried to overcomplicate things and make football a science, it isn't. Yes, there are tactics etc. but essentially it doesn't need to be broken down into phases of play and all that rubbish.

Yes it does and I would be amazed if Sherwood (along with every other Premier League manager) does not work on this.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

GB does have a point re the anti-intellect approach in England in football, largely grounded in the fact (no offense) you guys need to get over your class/social issues (as seen with the additional hostility towards the "prawn sandwich" phalanx), general consensus is football is simple (non intellectual), and only the working class can be true fans.

That's a very real divide - you can see it pretty clearly on this forum, and as this place requires a computer/phone to access it, we've already filtered out the least intelligent.

I believe it's also the way many English footballers think too and that's where the divide becomes a real problem. English players will, like many fans, automatically trust someone like Redknapp (sorry, but he's the best example), whereas someone like AVB who doesn't hide his intelligence is automatically thought of as untrustworthy.

So how does a manager put across complicated, intelligent tactical ideas to the foreign contingent of a team without alienating the traditionalists? That's a genuine question, I have no idea!

 

[DHSF]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

We looked just as week when we were getting bum raped 0-5 and 0-6 playing a 4-2-3-1 system.

Thats what I dont get mate... the reason we are so weak defensively is because Tims predecessor was a bit **** defensively - our defensive woes started with AVB, it did not start with Tim.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Thats what I dont get mate... the reason we are so weak defensively is because Tims predecessor was a bit **** defensively - our defensive woes started with AVB, it did not start with Tim.

Was the sole reason 'AVB was a bit **** defensively' considering our record in the first however many games was excellent defensively, or could there possibly have been other factors influencing that too?

 

[DHSF]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Was the sole reason 'AVB was a bit **** defensively' considering our record in the first however many games was excellent defensively, or could there possibly have been other factors influencing that too?

No I think we flattered to deceive, defensively, in the early parts of this season. We looked shaky. So if we are going to throw a stick at Tim for us being shaky (yet not conceding too many) then im happy to use the same stick regarding the early parts of this season as we also looked shaky yet not conceding many.

There is a very big difference between looking defensively assured and those of the opposition not taking their opportunities etc.

This isnt about AVB v Tim, its about understanding that we are shaky but not all down to Tim and that will take time to resolve - especially considering that our best defender is out.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

didn't we set a club clean sheet record under AVB

also as we won so many games by the odd goal we must have been doing something right defensively last season

I think the aberrations this season have muddied the water on our D under AVB

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's a very real divide - you can see it pretty clearly on this forum, and as this place requires a computer/phone to access it, we've already filtered out the least intelligent.

I believe it's also the way many English footballers think too and that's where the divide becomes a real problem. English players will, like many fans, automatically trust someone like Redknapp (sorry, but he's the best example), whereas someone like AVB who doesn't hide his intelligence is automatically thought of as untrustworthy.

So how does a manager put across complicated, intelligent tactical ideas to the foreign contingent of a team without alienating the traditionalists? That's a genuine question, I have no idea!

One of the challenges as a manager in any field is communicating complex information in simple ways.

 

[Papercut]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Fans don't celebrate a clean sheet - they celebrate goals. I imagine also that players (apart from the keeper perhaps) celebrate goals. A goal provides serotonin to all even if you lose...