The new, new manager thread - Pt 3

[milo]

By far our safest bet.

I'd be interested in hearing what posters who have him as their first choice think the biggest risks of appointing Rafa would be.

 

[indianspur]

Mascherano would be a great signing. Agger's too similar to Vertonghen though. Rather those two than Daley Blind and Windmill van der Clogs.

wait, but earlier you blasted the fans who didnt want Eriksen......where did Eriksen make his name, at which club and in which league??

 

[Kingdawson]

Mascherano would be a great signing. Agger's too similar to Vertonghen though. Rather those two than Daley Blind and Windmill van der Clogs.

:ross:

 

[Kingdawson]

At least with Poch i've seen with my own eyes what he's about. Attacking brand of football, good media handling, solid defensively, 4-2-3-1 formation...yes i like what i see. I also like the fact that Lamela would almost certainly be an integral part of our team if he was manager.

 

[Baleforce]

I'd be interested in hearing what posters who have him as their first choice think the biggest risks of appointing Rafa would be.

his patchy record with recruitment and his inability to deal with "mind games" although he seemed much better at this when at chelsea, back in his liverpool days fergie and jose had him approaching full keegan

 

[braineclipse]

Then what is ?

He might bring shaw llallalana and rodrigues ?
Please do explain

How about you answer my request too? If you can't you're essentially just repeating a straw man, something that's getting tiring.

As I've repeated before: I copy-pasted what I think is pretty decent information about Poch's time at Espanyol here: http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/showthread.php/5606-Next-Spurs-Manager-v-2?p=545299&viewfull=1#post545299

I've asked those against his appointment, and those that have summarized his time at Espanyol unfairly (imo) to give me their version of events at Espanyol. I might very well have missed a good reply as the pages keep flying by in these discussions, but so far I've yet to see a solid counter argument to the point that his time at Espanyol was very impressive.

His time at Southampton:

-He took over at a precarious time for them. He took on considerable pressure when taking that job, I honestly think Adkins might have stayed popular even if relegated. Poch was the man that took over for the much adored Adkins who had gotten Southampton consecutive promotions. Had Poch gotten Southampton relegated he could very easily have been sacked and his reputation in England would not have been good. He came in with a clear philosophy, despite not speaking much English at the time he managed to to implement his ideas to that Southampton side and they have kept playing good football. Although he hasn't won trophies he's performed under pressure.

-Under him several players have kept developing very nicely. Yes, those players were already talented, but to essentially make half that Southampton side targets for top 6/4 clubs is impressive to me. This is something we desperately need, we have many clearly talented players that have underperformed.

-This season, their second in the PL (often seen as a difficult one) they've again done really well. I've looked around before and not a single pundit or expert I found tipped them any higher than 8th, most had them mid-table and up to 8th, but none I found had them higher. They've done so after overcoming quite a few challenges and I like his approach. In their first season their most impressive results were against bigger teams, whilst they struggled against teams close to them in the league where teams would sit back and defend more. This season they've taken a step forward and have overcome their problems with an average of 2 points per game against the bottom half teams.

-Slightly more anecdotal, but he's formerly worked under Bielsa. Interestingly the latest second captains podcast (I think) ran with the claim that Bielsa and LvG have been the most influential people in forming modern football or something similar to that. When stuff like FdB's links to Barca and LvG etc is worth something I really think Poch's Bielsa link is worth paying attention to.

-He's succeeded at a level that I think is closer to us than what FdB has. Yes, Southampton "only finished 8th", but only finished 6th in the same league and our current aim is 4th - only 4 spots ahead of that Southampton final position. He's also done well at Espanyol, with limited (or non existent) resources - a league that's much tougher than the Dutch league. In other words he's shown himself capable of making his ideas work without having the best players. Unlike someone like AVB for example.

-An important point for me remains the point I mentioned above. He's managed to implement his ideas in the PL, creating a very good team in the process that can both attack and defend as a unit and play entertaining football whilst getting results. I still think both Ramos and AVB were potentially good managers, but they failed for us (and AVB at Chelsea) in the Premier League. That PL experience to me seems valuable, and to me a bit similar to what Martinez did at Wigan and what Rodgers did at Swansea. Martinez's best finish with Wigan in the PL was 15th I think, but for me the ability all those 3 have shown to set up teams capable of playing good attacking football at teams that have been "mid table at best" is a very good sign of an managerial ability that can be transferred to a higher level.

 

[milo]

his patchy record with recruitment and his inability to deal with "mind games" although he seemed much better at this when at chelsea, back in his liverpool days fergie and jose had him approaching full keegan

Thanks. I have the impression of him being a cheque book manager and would require more changes to the squad than the other leading candidates. Do you think that this is fair?

 

[DublinSpur]

I'd be interested in hearing what posters who have him as their first choice think the biggest risks of appointing Rafa would be.

I'm completely ambivalent about Benitez. On the one hand I think he'd be the most likely of the three front-runners to bring us some silverware. So in theory that should make him my first choice. But I think the big risk with Rafa is that he'll end up alienating the fans with safe, conservative, dull football. Typical Spurs-fan psychosis... would almost prefer to lose than win by grinding out dull, safe 1-0s every week.

 

[Grassroots]

How about you answer my request too? If you can't you're essentially just repeating a straw man, something that's getting tiring.

As I've repeated before: I copy-pasted what I think is pretty decent information about Poch's time at Espanyol here: http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/showthread.php/5606-Next-Spurs-Manager-v-2?p=545299&viewfull=1#post545299

I've asked those against his appointment, and those that have summarized his time at Espanyol unfairly (imo) to give me their version of events at Espanyol. I might very well have missed a good reply as the pages keep flying by in these discussions, but so far I've yet to see a solid counter argument to the point that his time at Espanyol was very impressive.

His time at Southampton:

-He took over at a precarious time for them. He took on considerable pressure when taking that job, I honestly think Adkins might have stayed popular even if relegated. Poch was the man that took over for the much adored Adkins who had gotten Southampton consecutive promotions. Had Poch gotten Southampton relegated he could very easily have been sacked and his reputation in England would not have been good. He came in with a clear philosophy, despite not speaking much English at the time he managed to to implement his ideas to that Southampton side and they have kept playing good football. Although he hasn't won trophies he's performed under pressure.

-Under him several players have kept developing very nicely. Yes, those players were already talented, but to essentially make half that Southampton side targets for top 6/4 clubs is impressive to me. This is something we desperately need, we have many clearly talented players that have underperformed.

-This season, their second in the PL (often seen as a difficult one) they've again done really well. I've looked around before and not a single pundit or expert I found tipped them any higher than 8th, most had them mid-table and up to 8th, but none I found had them higher. They've done so after overcoming quite a few challenges and I like his approach. In their first season their most impressive results were against bigger teams, whilst they struggled against teams close to them in the league where teams would sit back and defend more. This season they've taken a step forward and have overcome their problems with an average of 2 points per game against the bottom half teams.

-Slightly more anecdotal, but he's formerly worked under Bielsa. Interestingly the latest second captains podcast (I think) ran with the claim that Bielsa and LvG have been the most influential people in forming modern football or something similar to that. When stuff like FdB's links to Barca and LvG etc is worth something I really think Poch's Bielsa link is worth paying attention to.

-He's succeeded at a level that I think is closer to us than what FdB has. Yes, Southampton "only finished 8th", but only finished 6th in the same league and our current aim is 4th - only 4 spots ahead of that Southampton final position. He's also done well at Espanyol, with limited (or non existent) resources - a league that's much tougher than the Dutch league. In other words he's shown himself capable of making his ideas work without having the best players. Unlike someone like AVB for example.

-An important point for me remains the point I mentioned above. He's managed to implement his ideas in the PL, creating a very good team in the process that can both attack and defend as a unit and play entertaining football whilst getting results. I still think both Ramos and AVB were potentially good managers, but they failed for us (and AVB at Chelsea) in the Premier League. That PL experience to me seems valuable, and to me a bit similar to what Martinez did at Wigan and what Rodgers did at Swansea. Martinez's best finish with Wigan in the PL was 15th I think, but for me the ability all those 3 have shown to set up teams capable of playing good attacking football at teams that have been "mid table at best" is a very good sign of an managerial ability that can be transferred to a higher level.

Wow ok im about to go to a meeting but if you want I will copy and paste somebody else's opinion later you and rossi have anger issues methinks

Just imagine what a **** world it would be if everyone just agreed.

show me where i said poch was **** ?
Show me where i insulted him in any way he just is not my choice.
sorry if that's offensive to you two
maybe I should buy my first copy of football manager so I can be more informed.

ill say it again though its my opinion you do not have to share it you are entitled to yours its just as valid in your world

Jeeez you guys are to angry i thought we were all spurs fans of varied opinions ?
Or should each thread consist of 1 post ?
Maybe a cpl of hear hears underneath

Keep smiling
yours sincerely
Gassroots.

 

[Rossi22]

Only Juve, Liverpool, City, Barca, Madrid, Bayern, Dortmund and PSG from the top five leagues outscored Rafa's boring Napoli this season.

 

[Baleforce]

Thanks. I have the impression of him being a cheque book manager and would require more changes to the squad than the other leading candidates. Do you think that this is fair?

i'm not sure he'd want to do that much, we have a squad with reasonable balance across positions, i'm sure he'd want some signings but he's a pragmatist and i would be surprised if he wanted to throw too many new players into the mix

 

[indianspur]

Only Juve, Liverpool, City, Barca, Madrid, Bayern, Dortmund and PSG from the top five leagues outscored Rafa's boring Napoli this season.

Rafa is very very happy at Napoli. He doesnt want the Spurs job. FACT

 

[DublinSpur]

Wow ok im about to go to a meeting but if you want I will copy and paste somebody else's opinion later you and rossi have anger issues methinks

Just imagine what a **** world it would be if everyone just agreed.

show me where i said poch was **** ?

You didn't. But you suggested that the "main reason" people wanted him was because he finished 8th with Southampton. When someone suggested that wasn't true, you asked *why* people wanted Poch.

It seems to me that braineclipse has merely answered your question thoroughly and thoughtfully. I don't detect any anger in his response at all, just a little frustration at having to repeat points that have been made several times already. Perfectly reasonable. What I don't find perfectly reasonable is your attempt to undermine his response by characterising it as "angry" for no good reason.

 

[camspur]

How about you answer my request too? If you can't you're essentially just repeating a straw man, something that's getting tiring.

As I've repeated before: I copy-pasted what I think is pretty decent information about Poch's time at Espanyol here: http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/showthread.php/5606-Next-Spurs-Manager-v-2?p=545299&viewfull=1#post545299
I've asked those against his appointment, and those that have summarized his time at Espanyol unfairly (imo) to give me their version of events at Espanyol. I might very well have missed a good reply as the pages keep flying by in these discussions, but so far I've yet to see a solid counter argument to the point that his time at Espanyol was very impressive.
His time at Southampton:
-He took over at a precarious time for them. He took on considerable pressure when taking that job, I honestly think Adkins might have stayed popular even if relegated. Poch was the man that took over for the much adored Adkins who had gotten Southampton consecutive promotions. Had Poch gotten Southampton relegated he could very easily have been sacked and his reputation in England would not have been good. He came in with a clear philosophy, despite not speaking much English at the time he managed to to implement his ideas to that Southampton side and they have kept playing good football. Although he hasn't won trophies he's performed under pressure.

Conversely it could be argued he had no pressure as had they been relegated everyone would’ve said well they were 2 divisions lower 2 seasons ago perhaps the Championship is their level.

-Under him several players have kept developing very nicely. Yes, those players were already talented, but to essentially make half that Southampton side targets for top 6/4 clubs is impressive to me. This is something we desperately need, we have many clearly talented players that have underperformed.

Is that because of him or just natural development

-This season, their second in the PL (often seen as a difficult one) they've again done really well. I've looked around before and not a single pundit or expert I found tipped them any higher than 8th, most had them mid-table and up to 8th, but none I found had them higher. They've done so after overcoming quite a few challenges and I like his approach. In their first season their most impressive results were against bigger teams, whilst they struggled against teams close to them in the league where teams would sit back and defend more. This season they've taken a step forward and have overcome their problems with an average of 2 points per game against the bottom half teams.

8th is mid table, they are equidistant pointwise from 4th and 3rd bottom.

-He's succeeded at a level that I think is closer to us than what FdB has. Yes, Southampton "only finished 8th", but only finished 6th in the same league and our current aim is 4th - only 4 spots ahead of that Southampton final position. He's also done well at Espanyol, with limited (or non existent) resources - a league that's much tougher than the Dutch league. In other words he's shown himself capable of making his ideas work without having the best players. Unlike someone like AVB for example.

4th may only be 4 spots above but its 26 points away, or NINE WINS. Even our 2 places higher was 13 points ahead of them. The gulf between 8th onwards is massive.

-An important point for me remains the point I mentioned above. He's managed to implement his ideas in the PL, creating a very good team in the process that can both attack and defend as a unit and play entertaining football whilst getting results. I still think both Ramos and AVB were potentially good managers, but they failed for us (and AVB at Chelsea) in the Premier League. That PL experience to me seems valuable, and to me a bit similar to what Martinez did at Wigan and what Rodgers did at Swansea. Martinez's best finish with Wigan in the PL was 15th I think, but for me the ability all those 3 have shown to set up teams capable of playing good attacking football at teams that have been "mid table at best" is a very good sign of an managerial ability that can be transferred to a higher level.

Conversely a manager who had consistently finished mid-table and above failed miserably at a top 4 club which could be seen as a bad sign of managerial ability can be transferred.

Now these are counter argumnets for the sake of arguing but for every positive you can see an equal negative.
I am still not convinced we want to go the “might be good” route and at this point we need a proven manager.

 

[Mumorn]

Only Juve, Liverpool, City, Barca, Madrid, Bayern, Dortmund and PSG from the top five leagues outscored Rafa's boring Napoli this season.

why would he come here then? He seems happy at Napoli, has his team playing well, got a good side and a good chance to challenge Juve for Serie A next year and do well in Europe once again next season.

Was he ever a realistic target?

 

[harr1984]

why would he come here then? He seems happy at Napoli, has his team playing well, got a good side and a good chance to challenge Juve for Serie A next year and do well in Europe once again next season.

Was he ever a realistic target?

Well Carragher and Thompson seemed to think so, I guess they'd know better than anyone on here....

 

[indianspur]

why would he come here then? He seems happy at Napoli, has his team playing well, got a good side and a good chance to challenge Juve for Serie A next year and do well in Europe once again next season.

Was he ever a realistic target?

precisely, some people are getting their knickers in a twist over nothing. Why would Rafa take a step down to come to Spurs??

 

[milo]

why would he come here then? He seems happy at Napoli, has his team playing well, got a good side and a good chance to challenge Juve for Serie A next year and do well in Europe once again next season.

Was he ever a realistic target?

It was people that you would assume are close to him (Carragher and Thompson) who put his hat into the ring. I don't remember many linking him with the post before this. It is possible that we were being used to get a pay rise but it does not seem unreasonable to think that he would be interested.

 

[Mumorn]

It was people that you would assume are close to him (Carragher and Thompson) who put his hat into the ring. I don't remember many linking him with the post before this. It is possible that we were being used to get a pay rise but it does not seem unreasonable to think that he would be interested.

i suppose it's as reasonable as LVG to be fair.

 

[braineclipse]

Wow ok im about to go to a meeting but if you want I will copy and paste somebody else's opinion later you and rossi have anger issues methinks

Just imagine what a **** world it would be if everyone just agreed.

show me where i said poch was **** ?
Show me where i insulted him in any way he just is not my choice.
sorry if that's offensive to you two
maybe I should buy my first copy of football manager so I can be more informed.

ill say it again though its my opinion you do not have to share it you are entitled to yours its just as valid in your world

Jeeez you guys are to angry i thought we were all spurs fans of varied opinions ?
Or should each thread consist of 1 post ?
Maybe a cpl of hear hears underneath

Keep smiling
yours sincerely
Gassroots.

Ok, I need a sanity check here.

Would someone else mind reading my post and tell me if it makes me seem like I have anger issues? Or if I in any way implied that grassroots had said that Poch was ****? Or that I implied that Grassroots insulted him? Or in any way warranted that response from Grassroots?

My post was in reply to the question "Then what is (the main selling point for Poch)?"