Harry_Perkins
Ben Thatcher
Exactly. It is all the more galling when Jewish people who raise concerns about this are then dismissed out of hand!
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The Goon Thread
- Thread starter Jordinho
- Start date
Exactly. It is all the more galling when Jewish people who raise concerns about this are then dismissed out of hand!
Naughton16
Clive Wilson
The FA investigation isnt looking to bring criminal charges against Terry.
Harry_Perkins
Ben Thatcher
Yid doesn't have quite the same power behind it.
Generally speaking though, he's right. It is absurd that it is mostly gentiles on both sides that use yid as another name for 'Spurs'. Nevermind the Jewish fans of other clubs who have to listen to it used as an insult. What does their opinion matter eh? And on this case, I'm sorry, but why can we use 'yid army' to mean 'Spurs' but if someone says 'yid scum' this some sort of grave insult? If he's said 'Tottenham scum' would he be up on an FA charge?
I saw this programme. I can see Baddiel's point but the way he seems to think Spurs fans shouting "Yid Army" is as bad as Chelsea fans singing "Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz" is ridiculous.
Harry_Perkins
Ben Thatcher
I don't think he's ever said anything of the sort. I can see how the video they did can lead to people thinking that but it really wasn't what it was saying at all. It would have more apt to have them chanting some yid based insult. Similar to the one that has got Frimpong into bother. Then it would have been more obvious what the point was.
Danners9
Luke Young
Frimpong is a first class macaron, he is more famous for twitter than football. The FA have the power to warn their players, including him, about their conduct.. so they have.
He clearly doesn't mean it in an anti-semitic way, he isn't smart enough for that. It's more an Arsenal vs Spurs thing. The tweet to him was probably worse, but part of the life is not retaliating.
He is a bellend though, it's amusing he's been charged.
The use of 'yid' by Spurs fans is the total opposite of the use of 'yid' by others. 'Yid army!' is totally different to 'you dirty yid ****', pretty obvious. Like saying the word black isn't racist until it's turned into an insult.
He clearly doesn't mean it in an anti-semitic way, he isn't smart enough for that. It's more an Arsenal vs Spurs thing. The tweet to him was probably worse, but part of the life is not retaliating.
He is a bellend though, it's amusing he's been charged.
The use of 'yid' by Spurs fans is the total opposite of the use of 'yid' by others. 'Yid army!' is totally different to 'you dirty yid ****', pretty obvious. Like saying the word black isn't racist until it's turned into an insult.
jts1882
Dean Richards
Agree. His point was that without the Spurs fans using Yid Army, the Chelsea fans wouldn't have responded that way. Its the Spurs fans use of Yid that is to blame.
Spursalot
Jimmy McCormick
The chicken and the egg argument surely?
I bet either side would claim the other side started it.
He's a fudging idiot then. Our use of Yid, as the Arsenal fans' use of Gooners, takes away the possibility to use the word in an insulting manner. It doesn't change how the word can be used in other situations, but context is everything.
No he hasn't said it but the video does tend to insinuate that. Even the interview he gave on the BBC racism programme seemed to be more about Spurs fans use of the word Yid and less about Chelsea's far worse (IMO) anti-semtic behaviour/chants. Although that may have been the editing.
SUIYHA
Scott Parker
As a Jewish fan, it really irritates me every time this debate comes up, and Baddiel can fudge right off.
The word yid is not racist. It's just a word. It doesn't have some sort of curse around it that makes an angel die every time somebody says it. What is racist was the meaning of the word when used to be offensive towards Jewish people. That doesn't mean that the meaning of the word cannot change and it cannot be used for something else. For all we know, there could be some tribe in Africa who have the word "yid" as part of their language and it translates into "flower" or something, now if they talk about "yids" are they being racist? They probably don't even know what Judaism is! If I ask you to describe the night sky, you'd probably say "black". If I asked you to describe John Terry, you'd probably say "cunt". Are either of those words racist? No, because they're not being used in a racist context. But I asked you to describe a particular person of African heritage and you put those words together and called them a "black cunt", then that is being racist, because you're using the fact that they are black as a negative. But if I THEN asked you to name the area between Wolverhampton and Birmingham, the words "black cunt" would also come out of your mouth, but there is no mention of race whatsoever.
My point is, it's all about context. Something is only racist if it is used specifically to highlight somebody's race. When Spurs fans sing about yids, we are not thinking about Jews, religion or race, they are thinking about football and that is how it should be interpreted. Yes, there are a few tossers who support Chelsea/West Ham or whoever that sing songs about Spurs on their way to Auschwitz, but it seems right now that the only people bringing racism into the equation are people like Baddiel that won't let things move on. If he wants to be such a Language Nazi (scuse the irony) and insist that every word's original meaning is the only true one, I insist that he leaves all his money on a slope next to a river, tries to hit cricket balls with flying animals that live in caves and does his DIY by smashing the plates that grow on the end of his fingers into a wall.
The word yid is not racist. It's just a word. It doesn't have some sort of curse around it that makes an angel die every time somebody says it. What is racist was the meaning of the word when used to be offensive towards Jewish people. That doesn't mean that the meaning of the word cannot change and it cannot be used for something else. For all we know, there could be some tribe in Africa who have the word "yid" as part of their language and it translates into "flower" or something, now if they talk about "yids" are they being racist? They probably don't even know what Judaism is! If I ask you to describe the night sky, you'd probably say "black". If I asked you to describe John Terry, you'd probably say "cunt". Are either of those words racist? No, because they're not being used in a racist context. But I asked you to describe a particular person of African heritage and you put those words together and called them a "black cunt", then that is being racist, because you're using the fact that they are black as a negative. But if I THEN asked you to name the area between Wolverhampton and Birmingham, the words "black cunt" would also come out of your mouth, but there is no mention of race whatsoever.
My point is, it's all about context. Something is only racist if it is used specifically to highlight somebody's race. When Spurs fans sing about yids, we are not thinking about Jews, religion or race, they are thinking about football and that is how it should be interpreted. Yes, there are a few tossers who support Chelsea/West Ham or whoever that sing songs about Spurs on their way to Auschwitz, but it seems right now that the only people bringing racism into the equation are people like Baddiel that won't let things move on. If he wants to be such a Language Nazi (scuse the irony) and insist that every word's original meaning is the only true one, I insist that he leaves all his money on a slope next to a river, tries to hit cricket balls with flying animals that live in caves and does his DIY by smashing the plates that grow on the end of his fingers into a wall.
jts1882
Dean Richards
The judge/magistrate at his criminal trial said Terry's explanation was unlikely, but that a criminal trial required a beyond reasonable doubt standard and that he could not exclude the possibility that Terry was repeating something Ferdinand said.
If you read the judge's opionion it seems that a guilty verdict would have been made at the civil standard, which is the one the FA use.
Danners9
Luke Young
They may do, but only one side is correct. The Spurs use is in retaliation to disarm the word, showing that it doesn't hurt because we're calling ourselves it.
Harry_Perkins
Ben Thatcher
Yes and I think he's right to focus on Spurs, for reasons which he's explain time and time again. To me, this goes beyond the football rivalry. I don't believe he is saying these things just to spite us! And that section of the video is just illustrate that yid is also used as a term of abuse. It isn't just another name for Spurs fan and it has a history. It is a fairly obvious point for some but not for many.
jts1882
Dean Richards
But history shows that Spurs fans used the word to counter the use of Yid in an insulting manner. Spurs fans weren't the first to use the word. And its also clear that Chelsea fans were using it as an insult, although for most not as a racist chant. For most Chelsea fans it was an anti-Spurs chant, not an anti-Jew chant. The gas-chamber stuff is distasteful, but the not racist in origin. Baddiel doesn't want to address this and makes the simplistic argument that if Spurs fans didn''t use Yid, Chelsea fans wouldn't hiss, which might be true at a superficial level. There are some arguments in Genesis about the intrinsic nature of hissing in some life forms but that is probably another discussion.
P.S. The comparison with the n-word is a bad one. The word Yid had none of the connotations and history behind the n-word.
Harry_Perkins
Ben Thatcher
I think his point is a bit more nuanced than that! It is more that it is difficult to make progress on getting anti semitic language out of football when one club uses one particular term as a badge of honour. Which is just stating the bleedin' obvious really. If it is okay for us to call ourselves yids and mean spurs then why not fans of other clubs? Or this Frimpong idiot? Clearly he means Spurs IMO. It is a bit daft to take the stance that somehow Baddiel and Kick Racism out of Football are out to persecute us and us alone. And are trying to make out we're worsr than virulent anti-semites who sing songs about Auschwitz. I've never seen any evidence of that.
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