The decision to fire AVB

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Well i entirely disagree.

Why have you not mentioned the players AVB actually wanting turning out to be failures thus far? i mean you've mentioned that one of the failures was that he was provided with players he didn't want but neglect to mention the ones that he did want have all flattered to deceive?

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I suspect that your scenario there is a little far fetched and that AVB was knocking on an open door when wanting a DoF.

How can it be far fetched when we have AVB himself declaring he wanted Baldini in public?

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Speaking to US podcast Beyond the Pitch, Ferdinand said: “Most of the signings were perhaps suggestions to him, but he agreed to those suggestions.

“The bottom line is he agreed to all of those signings. It wasn't a case that the players were brought in and he was told 'You have to make a team of these players', because if you're a manager and that happens, you're destined for the sack.

“From speaking to AVB, I understand he was happy that the players came to the club.”



My belief is that all the players signed he gave the green light too.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

AVB on Baldini
"Franco has had a massive impact. He was a person I was pushing to get from the day I arrived here. His impact was immediate, the way he moves himself in the market and the knowledge and experience that he has. It's great credit to him to what has been done this summer."

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

How can it be far fetched when we have AVB himself declaring he wanted Baldini in public?

I think that it is far fetched because I suspect that Levy always intended to bring in a DoF. Discussing who the manager felt they could work with seems like a sensible way of going about this when their was a manager already in place.

I think that it is unfair to judge Baldini a failure on the basis of one window when he was not in place for all of it, half way through we had to rip up our plans and start again and evidently Baldini had to spend a fair amount of time in Madrid negotiating with Real meaning that he could not spend as much time as we would have liked on our incoming deals.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Speaking to US podcast Beyond the Pitch, Ferdinand said: “Most of the signings were perhaps suggestions to him, but he agreed to those suggestions.

“The bottom line is he agreed to all of those signings. It wasn't a case that the players were brought in and he was told 'You have to make a team of these players', because if you're a manager and that happens, you're destined for the sack.

“From speaking to AVB, I understand he was happy that the players came to the club.”



My belief is that all the players signed he gave the green light too.

Mine too. It would surely be foolhardy in the extreme to bring in players AVB had red lighted.

I am also surprised given his supposed extensive worldwide football travel and scouting expertise, that AVB himself failed to unearth a single 'diamond in the rough'. The only players he reportedly wanted were already established superstars.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think that it is far fetched because I suspect that Levy always intended to bring in a DoF. Discussing who the manager felt they could work with seems like a sensible way of going about this when their was a manager already in place.

I think that it is unfair to judge Baldini a failure on the basis of one window when he was not in place for all of it, half way through we had to rip up our plans and start again and evidently Baldini had to spend a fair amount of time in Madrid negotiating with Real meaning that he could not spend as much time as we would have liked on our incoming deals.

What makes you think this? is it just your opinion or is it something you have read that makes you feel this way?



“It’s not fundamental, but it will help the club moving forward,” Villas-Boas said last month.

“It’s something that I am used to working with. A number of experiences that we had with Jose (Mourinho) at Inter Milan with (Marco) Branca which was always positive.

“Not only me as a manager but when I was with him so I think it’s something that works. Since the first day I told the club that it’s somebody who is extremely important in my view to the structure of the club.”

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What makes you think this? is it just your opinion or is it something you have read that makes you feel this way?



“It’s not fundamental, but it will help the club moving forward,” Villas-Boas said last month.

“It’s something that I am used to working with. A number of experiences that we had with Jose (Mourinho) at Inter Milan with (Marco) Branca which was always positive.

“Not only me as a manager but when I was with him so I think it’s something that works. Since the first day I told the club that it’s somebody who is extremely important in my view to the structure of the club.”

Because Levy has always favoured a DoF before apart from under Redknapp and that is because Redknapp refused to work under one. When AVB was appointed he was given the job title of first team coach, whereas Redknapp was manager, I think that this clearly shows that he was intending a change in structure.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Why have you not mentioned the players AVB actually wanting turning out to be failures thus far? i mean you've mentioned that one of the failures was that he was provided with players he didn't want but neglect to mention the ones that he did want have all flattered to deceive?

if you read back through the conversation we had last night you'll see that i put the root of the problems down as AVB being provided several players he didn't want and also not making the most of the players at his disposal.

 

[mudshark]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Speaking to US podcast Beyond the Pitch, Ferdinand said: “Most of the signings were perhaps suggestions to him, but he agreed to those suggestions.

“The bottom line is he agreed to all of those signings. It wasn't a case that the players were brought in and he was told 'You have to make a team of these players', because if you're a manager and that happens, you're destined for the sack.

“From speaking to AVB, I understand he was happy that the players came to the club.”



My belief is that all the players signed he gave the green light too.

That sounds like Les going to bat for his mate Tim to me, but it has more than a ring of disingenuousness about it, I think, especially given the way Sherwood avoided any equivalent responsibility in January.

I mean, I have no idea who said what to whom on the transfer committee before, during or after the window, but we've seen the way Levy tends to work, and if you say you want players X and Y, and you're told you can't have X and Y, but you can have A and B instead, so you say, well, you'd still prefer X and Y, and it's politely reiterated that you can have A and B or you can have nobody, you're probably going to "agree" to the signings. I don't think that equates to agreeing it's the right way forward, though.

On the other hand, I personally doubt it, but I suppose it's possible AVB was perfectly happy at the start of the season with all the new players and things just somehow went south. Whichever version is closer to the truth, I think ultimately, he gave up — on the squad, on Levy and on the club. Spat his dummy and gave up.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That sounds like Les going to bat for his mate Tim to me, but it has more than a ring of disingenuousness about it, I think, especially given the way Sherwood avoided any equivalent responsibility in January.

I mean, I have no idea who said what to whom on the transfer committee before, during or after the window, but we've seen the way Levy tends to work, and if you say you want players X and Y, and you're told you can't have X and Y, but you can have A and B instead, so you say, well, you'd still prefer X and Y, and it's politely reiterated that you can have A and B or you can have nobody, you're probably going to "agree" to the signings. I don't think that equates to agreeing it's the right way forward, though.

On the other hand, I personally doubt it, but I suppose it's possible AVB was perfectly happy at the start of the season with all the new players and things just somehow went south. Whichever version is closer to the truth, I think ultimately, he gave up — on the squad, on Levy and on the club. Spat his dummy and gave up.

I don't think that is the way that Levy operates at all. We tried to sign Moutinho, Willian and Villa but for a variety of reasons the deals could not be done. I think that it is unlikely that we could have signed all of the players that AVB reputedly wanted but that is because they would have cost too much in transfer fees and wages but where there is a realistic target, Levy generally backs his managers.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Because Levy has always favoured a DoF before apart from under Redknapp and that is because Redknapp refused to work under one. When AVB was appointed he was given the job title of first team coach, whereas Redknapp was manager, I think that this clearly shows that he was intending a change in structure.

isn't it just as likely that Levy had no plan to implement a DOF system, pinpointed AVB as the man he wanted to takeover Redknapp, had discussions with AVB where AVB stated he wanted a DOF system, decided he wanted AVB so went with the managers suggestion.

Either way we'll never know for sure.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't think that is the way that Levy operates at all. We tried to sign Moutinho, Willian and Villa but for a variety of reasons the deals could not be done. I think that it is unlikely that we could have signed all of the players that AVB reputedly wanted but that is because they would have cost too much in transfer fees and wages but where there is a realistic target, Levy generally backs his managers.

Yes, with money. But if backing is more than that I don't think he does.

Every manager since and including Jol has had the legs cut out from under them somehow. Jol lost Carrick, the one player that made his team tick. He gets Zokora, a decent enough player and he can claim Carrick was replaced, probably because he has Commoli in his ear telling him that Zokora is going to be the man. Jol's given an interview about the pre-season before he left when he wanted certain players (in positions that we needed to strengthen) and instead we got a 4th choice striker for 16 million and a load of other young players with potential. Backed in terms of money yes, backed in terms of building the team the manager wants, to a plan, and a strategy? No. The only strategy is that these players are young and have sell on value, and enough of them will come good eventually to the point where they can be sold to profit and the cycle repeats again.

Ramos had Berbatov and Keane sold and replaced with Pav and Frazier Campbell. He lost 40 goals and received 50 million for the trouble but wasn't able to buy 40 goals back.

Harry had a couple of transfer windows where we could have pushed on with a clever signing or two but we stuck with the bargains. I defended Levy at the time on this assuming he was doing what was best for business, and pushing us to our limit, but we really could have wrapped up third in 11/12 had we made some smarter decisions in the transfer windows. As it was Harry's great success was getting the most out of players that were already here - the 'strategy' of signing a load of young players finally coming to fruition from 3 years previously as they matured enough and adjusted enough to be able to perform consistently.

And then we have this summer with AVB. Backed in terms of money that's been reinvested, sure. I actually think in terms of Soldado and Paulinho that AVB did get some of the players he wanted too. But there are elements of Levy not being able to help himself, and doing what he thinks is right for his own strategy rather than truly backing a manager. And in a couple of years the squad we have now may have matured again to such an extent that we look like quite the consistent team again. Just in time for the fulcrum of that side to be sold and for the cycle to begin again.

I think Levy feels that this strategy keeps us there or there abouts and when a good player gets very good he can be sold to leave the club accounts well in the black. I think he wants to keep us ticking over until the stadium can be built before selling it on. Truly backing a manager would represent too much of a risk in his eyes IMO.

 

[metalgear]

forget all the quotes, for all you know AVB had been toeing the corporate line all along.
he said the right thing - that he is happy with the players - or would you he openly condemn the signings ?

its possible that he was OK with the signings, but we know about the ones he didn't get - moutinho, coentrao. for a second imagine if we had these two in the squad...do you think things would have turned out very differentlly?

there was a gag order upon dismissal, its beginning to look like to me a mutual parting, perhaps AVB quitting.

 

[chancer]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I am also surprised given his supposed extensive worldwide football travel and scouting expertise, that AVB himself failed to unearth a single 'diamond in the rough'. The only players he reportedly wanted were already established superstars.

Very good point.

 

[thfcsteff]

I agree, it's a very fair question.

 

[billyiddo]

is it? iirc AVB himself said he wasn't interested in scouting potential signings and wanted to leave that to a DoF (which in turn raises questions over the argument that he didn't want certain players i suppose) i think the Hulk/Mouthino stuff is because we were in a spot at the time having no DoF and no working scouts either, so he stuck with what he knew.

 

[Hootnow]

is it? iirc AVB himself said he wasn't interested in scouting potential signings and wanted to leave that to a DoF (which in turn raises questions over the argument that he didn't want certain players i suppose) i think the Hulk/Mouthino stuff is because we were in a spot at the time having no DoF and no working scouts either, so he stuck with what he knew.

I think this comes from the fact that a few papers (and a lot of our fans) were saying that AVB had spent his year out travelling the world scouting players, looking at the world's best talents (and apparently part of the reason we hired him) only to come in and ask for.......Hulk and Moutinho. Excellent.

Not sure if that is true or not of course though.

If there was genuinely a period where the club didn't a DoF or any scouts, we are a complete and utter shambles. That would be disgraceful imo.

 

[milo]

I think this comes from the fact that a few papers (and a lot of our fans) were saying that AVB had spent his year out travelling the world scouting players, looking at the world's best talents (and apparently part of the reason we hired him) only to come in and ask for.......Hulk and Moutinho. Excellent.

Not sure if that is true or not of course though.

If there was genuinely a period where the club didn't a DoF or any scouts, we are a complete and utter shambles. That would be disgraceful imo.

I think that it was always a romantic ideal created by those who were most excited by AVB's appointment.

According to Greg Stobart, Neil Ashton and a couple of other journos AVB had been told and agreed to our policy of signing and developing young players before being appointed only to ask for Moutinho and Hulk on being appointed and then having a sulk when we couldn't get them.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think that it was always a romantic ideal created by those who were most excited by AVB's appointment.

According to Greg Stobart, Neil Ashton and a couple of other journos AVB had been told and agreed to our policy of signing and developing young players before being appointed only to ask for Moutinho and Hulk on being appointed and then having a sulk when we couldn't get them.

A collection of journos including Neil Ashton present a negative version of events that paint AVB as a sulking child? Shock!