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The decision to fire AVB

i was under the impression Willian was a wide playmaker?

would have been interesting to see him in our current line up
 
Kingdawson said:
Excellent post.

I mean you can also take it 1 step further and include Sigurdsson as another central player signed with little creativity (chosen to replace Rafa may i add) and the only creative type cm we had being frozen out (Huddlestone).
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Hudlestone played enough games to not be labelled as 'frozen out' imo. Especially near the end of last season.
Plus when he did play he often didn't have the stamina to make lasting impacts in games; not enough creativity to balance being run rungs around.

Hull's game vs Arsenal at the weekend illustrated why many on here were happy that Huddlestone was sold...in this league you have to have stamina..if not your creativity has to be on the levels of Messi to compensate (and even that might not be in enough...not sure I agree with the sentiment but that's PL football these days...)
 
glorygloryeze said:
I think AVB wanted Modric; when he was made manager Chelski stepped up their interest even further as AVB really wanted him. When it was clear that Levy was really digging his heels in and it wasn't going to happen AVB then turned to Mata.

My point is that yes AVB did want a deep-lying playmaker if possible, but also wanted creativity further up the pitch as well, especially if he didn't get the playmaker.
I think the players targeted make that clear imo
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No....Abramovich wanted Modric (hence Ancelotti talking about Luka whilst he was at Chelski). AVB may have agreed to it but Modric was a Abramovich priority (wasn't he also on friendly terms with Luka's agent).

How can the players targeted make it clear we wanted a deep lying playmaker when only Moutinho was a solid AVB link?

These are the facts:

1) Paulinho, Dembele, Capoue and Siggy signed as central players and not are deep lying cm's (not even close)

2) Our only deep lying CM frozen out and eventually sold (Huddlestone).


I agree he wanted creativity further up and the targets prove this but deep lying playmaker? no sorry mate the evidence shows otherwise.
 
billyiddo said:
i was under the impression Willian was a wide playmaker?

would have been interesting to see him in our current line up
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Have you seen him play this season? maybe he's just playing like this due to his managers cautious approach but he's a grafter that happens to play in an advanced role.
 
Kingdawson said:
Have you seen him play this season? maybe he's just playing like this due to his managers cautious approach but he's a grafter that happens to play in an advanced role.
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no i haven't, am going on the discussions had when we were in for him
 
glorygloryeze said:
Hudlestone played enough games to not be labelled as 'frozen out' imo. Especially near the end of last season.
Plus when he did play he often didn't have the stamina to make lasting impacts in games; not enough creativity to balance being run rungs around.

Hull's game vs Arsenal at the weekend illustrated why many on here were happy that Huddlestone was sold...in this league you have to have stamina..if not your creativity has to be on the levels of Messi to compensate (and even that might not be in enough...not sure I agree with the sentiment but that's PL football these days...)
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Huddlestone played due to injuries...lets not kid ourselves (and Huddlestones comments once he left clearly shows he felt frozen out). BTW i don't rate Huddlestone at all and was happy he was sold BUT he is a deep lying playmaker and the only one we possessed.
 
Kingdawson said:
No....Abramovich wanted Modric (hence Ancelotti talking about Luka whilst he was at Chelski). AVB may have agreed to it but Modric was a Abramovich priority (wasn't he also on friendly terms with Luka's agent).

How can the players targeted make it clear we wanted a deep lying playmaker when only Moutinho was a solid AVB link?

These are the facts:

1) Paulinho, Dembele, Capoue and Siggy signed as central players and not are deep lying cm's (not even close)

2) Our only deep lying CM frozen out and eventually sold (Huddlestone).


I agree he wanted creativity further up and the targets prove this but deep lying playmaker? no sorry mate the evidence shows otherwise.
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I said a deep-lying playmaker if possible; Capoue did show flashes in the early games that at times he could perform the role as well tbf.

Huddlestone didn't have the stamina sadly to perform the role. When he did, his moments of creative brilliance were overshadowed by what many on here showed were his lack of stamina ("slow turning circle" etc).
 
glorygloryeze said:
I said a deep-lying playmaker if possible; Capoue did show flashes in the early games that at times he could perform the role as well tbf.

Huddlestone didn't have the stamina sadly to perform the role. When he did, his moments of creative brilliance were overshadowed by what many on here showed were his lack of stamina ("slow turning circle" etc).
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I think Hootnow is spot on. He wanted a solid 3 in the middle and creativity to come from the forward 3.....the weird thing is he rarely if ever tried a 4-3-3 formation when he was here.
 
Kingdawson said:
ok that shows avb wanted luka...i know...i said he agreed with Abramovich....but Luka was initially a Abramovich/Chelski target before AVB arrived.
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Yes he was; but then AVB joined and said "yes, please try harder and get him; I like him"....a bit like Ancellotti and Bale by all accounts....
 
glorygloryeze said:
Modric was as well. My point being that he did identify creative types; some deep-lying and dictating tempo (Moutinho, Modric), some box-box and creative (Oscar, Moutinho?), some probably more likely deployed in a 'potent' front 3 (Hulk, Willian, Bernard).

AVB clearly wanted creativity in his team and it wasn't for want of trying that we didn't get enough in the end. The 3 CMs he did buy made sense in that they were sold enough for the roles they were being asked to perform. Paulinho offering the most goal threat of them all, and Capoue being a bit more forward-passing version of Sandro who had creative, tempo-setting potential as well (according to those who watched him play alongside Moussa Sissoko at Toulose)
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I'm not really too bothered by what AVB tried to do at Chelsea because a) as KD pointed out, they were after Modric before he even got there so the idea was there, even if he did also push for it and b) how he acted at other clubs is not particularly relevant to the players he tried to sign at Spurs.

I don't think anyone is denying that he wanted creative players, we're disagreeing on where he wanted them. From his purchases (and his targets), he very clearly identified that the creativity should be coming from the 3 forward positions, considering that the 3 cms he bought, while all good in their own right, were clearly not creative cms and never will be creative cms. He wanted the solid base and then for the front 3 to rampage (not too dissimilar to what Liverpool are going this season, except their midfield 3 also includes a Gerrard spraying passes around and Coutinho who is also very creative.) Maybe it could have worked long term in this country. I'm not so sure. I supported him till the end but I really think we should have a creative central midfielder.
 
Kingdawson said:
I think Hootnow is spot on. He wanted a solid 3 in the middle and creativity to come from the forward 3.....the weird thing is he rarely if ever tried a 4-3-3 formation when he was here.
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That is an interesting point; we tried it I think when we turned the Emirates Marketing Project game around (the 3-1 with 3 gaols in 5 mins or something in April last year) and I think we played it away to Chelski in the 2-2.

Again it seemed he did it reluctantly.

Vs Chelski it was


Holtby- Thudd- Parker

Lennon-Ade-Bale

We were a bit overrun, but our first equaliser showed how it could work imo. I think again the fact that Hudd was often overrun and Parker doing his usual pirouettes made it possibly too risky.
There would probably been a bigger case for it if Sandro was available in that second half of the season though..
 
glorygloryeze said:
Happy to be proved otherwise, but imo at least the days of big ****-ups at the back were interspersed with days of sold defending under AVB. With TS now it's week after week after week. In faxct when was our last clean sheet??
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The defence was certainly better under AVB (though I'm coming round to the view of some others who have argued that we started to look a lot less solid once teams started attacking us when they realised we weren't that much of a threat in attack).

I wasn't really talking about defensive performances in general though but these mistakes which led directly to to a goal, which was still incredibly high under AVB. That shows a lack of concentration for me. What is wrong with these players (who are not currently being helped by Sherwood's Kamikazee tactics)?
 
Hootnow said:
I'm not really too bothered by what AVB tried to do at Chelsea because a) as KD pointed out, they were after Modric before he even got there so the idea was there, even if he did also push for it and b) how he acted at other clubs is not particularly relevant to the players he tried to sign at Spurs.

I don't think anyone is denying that he wanted creative players, we're disagreeing on where he wanted them. From his purchases (and his targets), he very clearly identified that the creativity should be coming from the 3 forward positions, considering that the 3 cms he bought, while all good in their own right, were clearly not creative cms and never will be creative cms. He wanted the solid base and then for the front 3 to rampage (not too dissimilar to what Liverpool are going this season, except their midfield 3 also includes a Gerrard spraying passes around and Coutinho who is also very creative.) Maybe it could have worked long term in this country. I'm not so sure. I supported him till the end but I really think we should have a creative central midfielder.
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Some fair points; I think he system would have worked if we had kept Bale imo. The solidity in built in the team certainly would have protected our defence, who we can see are not as good as we'd like when exposed.

Oh well...
 
Hootnow said:
The defence was certainly better under AVB (though I'm coming round to the view of some others who have argued that we started to look a lot less solid once teams started attacking us when they realised we weren't that much of a threat in attack).

I wasn't really talking about defensive performances in general though but these mistakes which led directly to to a goal, which was still incredibly high under AVB. That shows a lack of concentration for me. What is wrong with these players (who are not currently being helped by Sherwood's Kamikazee tactics)?
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Which ones are you thinking of this season? I can think of Walker's vs Manure, Lloris vs Sunderland. Are you counting the goals vs Emirates Marketing Project, West Ham and Liverpool? If so, which ones?
 
Yep. I'd still rather have kept AVB on tbh, I said so at the time but I was very quickly losing faith in him and his ability to implement his system.

I actually think given a bit of time and a lot of money, AVB could be an exceptional manager but unfortunately we didn't have either and things just seemed to break down in the end between him and others at the club.

I'm really miffed at the fact that we could have gotten Martinez, Rodgers and AVB and we've ended up with the one that hasn't succeeded. Which is a big shame but oh well.
 
glorygloryeze said:
Which ones are you thinking of this season? I can think of Walker's vs Manure, Lloris vs Sunderland. Are you counting the goals vs Emirates Marketing Project, West Ham and Liverpool? If so, which ones?
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I'm not personally counting anything, my memory isn't anywhere as good as other people that I can remember individual goals from far back in the season!

I'm talking about that embarrassing table that has been circulating this season on mistakes which directly led to goals. We are top of that table at the moment by quite some distance and I vaguely remember also being top when AVB left too. I may be mis-remembering though, someone may have to correct me.
 
I wonder if the "silly individual mistakes that lead to goals" rot set in at Anfield last March:-k
To me all things started to go wrong from then:cry:

I still remember things in that regard being FAR WORSE under TS than AVB though....Where's Statto when you need him??
 
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