The decision to fire AVB

[africanspurs]

timing was wrong

the decision was right

 

[Robspur12]

Except most of them are completely untrue bar MAYBE Demba Ba when he was in his goalscoring form and RVP.

Yet Didn't Arsenal do just as well the season after RVP left? So although he scored most of their goals this was due to their attacking system creating goal scoring opportunities for him. Same for Ba whereas Bale literally created his goals himself.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

None of them are any less true than us relying entirely on Bale.

I can't remember which of our posters sytematically took apart the lazy falsehood that Bale won us our matches single-handedly but it was interesting to see. Went mostly without response though as it didn't fit in with preconceived opinions.

I made that post and never got any responses of note. Just got ignored.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Just like under AVB then. We have definately not been any worse under Sherwood, no way. To say otherwise really stretches your credibility and does yourself a diservice but we DO get the ball forward quicker, do play the better players in the squad consistently and we do create more chances, score many more goals and win more points.

I find it quite bizarre how people decide to use the final 5 or so league games of AVB's reign as the barometer of the team's defensive ability under him. I guess it suits the narrative though.

 

[Roy1983]

It was the only decision. Correct and no regrets from me.

 

[milo]

I find it quite bizarre how people decide to use the final 5 or so league games of AVB's reign as the barometer of the team's defensive ability under him. I guess it suits the narrative though.

If you don't mind me saying, I think that is a bit of a cop out. Who are people? What is their narrative? Do they all have the same view?

I think that things were obviously going wrong both on and off the pitch towards the end of AVB's time at the club. Obviously we got hammered by the better clubs in the league, which has been a feature of our season. I think more worrying, and a criticism that has been also levied at Sherwood, is that AVB did not appear to know how to resolve it. A lot of criticism of him at the time was that he was inflexible but in reality he was changing tactics game to game looking for an answer. The most puzzling example of this was dropping the high line for the ManU game but reintroducing it with a make shift defence for the Liverpool game.

 

[NWND]

If you don't mind me saying, I think that is a bit of a cop out. Who are people? What is their narrative? Do they all have the same view?

I think that things were obviously going wrong both on and off the pitch towards the end of AVB's time at the club. Obviously we got hammered by the better clubs in the league, which has been a feature of our season. I think more worrying, and a criticism that has been also levied at Sherwood, is that AVB did not appear to know how to resolve it. A lot of criticism of him at the time was that he was inflexible but in reality he was changing tactics game to game looking for an answer. The most puzzling example of this was dropping the high line for the ManU game but reintroducing it with a make shift defence for the Liverpool game.

Precisely. People talk about AVB the man with a plan but he didn't have a plan that I could see. In his first season he started off playing 4-2-3-1, with Sig in the hole but we lost to Saudi Sportswashing Machine, he then reintroduced VDV in the hole before sanctioning his sale, mixed results followed so instead of trying to embed the system he changed to 4-4-2 with Ade and Defoe upfront, we got some results with it but he then Bale asked him to play more centrally so he put him in and went back to 4-2-3-1 and to be honest the performances were very mundane but we all know what happened to Bale.

So onto this season, we buy all the players for 4-3-3 but he never once played it, Eriksen got in the team then dropped, Lamela had his best game home to Sheriff but doesnt play home to Saudi Sportswashing Machine then reappears away to City for his debut of all places where we also tried 4-3-3 for the first time (dear GHod i'm writing this and there are STILL fans who think he shouldn't have been fired), he tries to sell Ade, can't so isolates hin but then brings him back when our strikers can't score.

He chopped and changed everything all the time. The players just looked constantly confused and tired.

Also, even taking aside the thrashings, AVB's team was never solid looking defensively even when we went on a good defensive run at the start.

There were many games we got away with it particularly Hull at home, Sheriff away spring to mind where very average teams carved out enough chances to give us a proper hiding with simple punts over the top of the high line. I said after the West Ham home result it had been coming and the thrashings by Emirates Marketing Project and Pool were natural progressions of our defensive play all season. Sherwood certainly has not managed to improve this but he certainly hasnt made it worse and has had horrific injuries in defence to deal with.

 

[glorygloryeze]

If you don't mind me saying, I think that is a bit of a cop out. Who are people? What is their narrative? Do they all have the same view?

I think that things were obviously going wrong both on and off the pitch towards the end of AVB's time at the club. Obviously we got hammered by the better clubs in the league, which has been a feature of our season. I think more worrying, and a criticism that has been also levied at Sherwood, is that AVB did not appear to know how to resolve it. A lot of criticism of him at the time was that he was inflexible but in reality he was changing tactics game to game looking for an answer. The most puzzling example of this was dropping the high line for the ManU game but reintroducing it with a make shift defence for the Liverpool game.

I see what you mean with that. I remember our run and how we were playing then and I think what may have happened is that we went into that game much more confident than previous weeks (draw vs Manure, then win vs Fulham, Win vs Sunderland and then win vs Anzhi which was a very good team AND attacking performance) and iirc Liverpool had just lost away at Hull and many were talking about "when are Liverpool going to win away to a top 6/7 side"?

I think what made that result so galling for most was that it just wasn't expected; I think it was the same for our players who perhaps wanted to push up and strike early vs Liverpool (it worked previously). We never recovered from the way Liverpool pressed US high up the pitch and struck straight into our half (like a lot of teams this season).

I do wonder if Paulinho hadn't got himself sent off and we instead lost 3-1 if the infamous meeting would have happened...

 

[BrainOfLevy]

If you don't mind me saying, I think that is a bit of a cop out. Who are people? What is their narrative? Do they all have the same view?

I think that things were obviously going wrong both on and off the pitch towards the end of AVB's time at the club. Obviously we got hammered by the better clubs in the league, which has been a feature of our season. I think more worrying, and a criticism that has been also levied at Sherwood, is that AVB did not appear to know how to resolve it. A lot of criticism of him at the time was that he was inflexible but in reality he was changing tactics game to game looking for an answer. The most puzzling example of this was dropping the high line for the ManU game but reintroducing it with a make shift defence for the Liverpool game.

The 'people' are whoever the people are that say 'we were just as bad at the back under AVB as we are under Sherwood' as if the previous 17 months had been conveniently swept away.

 

[NWND]

The 'people' are whoever the people are that say 'we were just as bad at the back under AVB as we are under Sherwood' as if the previous 17 months had been conveniently swept away.

But its a valid point to be made. AVB did alright in his first season, he certainly wasn't sacked as a result of that season, although there were clearly signs of a strained relationship with the club board/technical directors (yes, i mean Sherwood/Baldini) back then.

BUT..record points total is not to be sniffed at, it was dissapointing to drop a place to 4th, but in the circumstances, you'd have to have been a bit of a tool to hold that against AVB. The performances were pretty dull, but Bale was a GHod and the hope was we had something to build on.

The real problems start THIS season. So AVB has had his season of continuation from Harry and use of players he didn't really have a massive input in (Verts, Sig etc). This is the season he has a full pre-season and full input into the transfer committee, he has the DOF HE asked for, he has a remit of saying "I got you a record points total, give me what I ask for".

And the reality is that he has massively ballsed it up. Now you can argue that he wasn't in a perfect position and wasn't given the perfect conditions to succeed all you like "Poor AVB, not being given Hulk, Moutinho, Varela, Willian, how is he ever supposed to stop us getting mullered 6-0 by any half decent team that shows up when he can't even have these players?" BUT...

THe last season is forgottten. Its irrelevant.

THIS season a lot was expected. We had according to everyone, fans, journos, pundits, other club's players, a stupendous summer transfer window. I am really really sorry, but screw all this talk of AVB working with his hands behind his back. Yes, he lost Bale, but really Bale was always going if not that summer the next and he'd pretty much made it clear he was going.

Soooooo, if you are seriously telling me as a manager you can't fashion a half-decent hard-to-beat, goalscoring unit out of the players we got last summer and the players already here, then I don't personally think you are much of a manager.

This whole time to gel thing is not much of an excuse for me, as it NEVER LOOKED LIKE GETTING BETTER. In fact, as the season went on, we looked easier to beat, less coherent as an attacking unit and more prone to complete mental collapse as things went on.

So you can't just say well its unfair to say Sherwood isn't any worse defensively than AVB because AVB had a season before when we weren't horrendous defensively.... Sherwood picked up what AVB left him THIS SEASON.

This was AVB's first proper attempt at building his own team and own philosophy after pretty much inheriting Harry's team with some adjustments already signed and agreed by the club prior to him joining.

So this was his first real team and it was pants. It was horrible to watch and got tonked whenever a team with half a bit of quality decided to have a go against us. We picked up some points inbetween times, but really there's only so bad you can make this group of highly talented players, and the fact that the clueless Sherwood has more than kept us ticking over on the same kind of results that AVB was producing (get tonked out of sight by anyone decent, beat all the c**p), BUT added the ability to actually score and a few hammerings of other teams (4-0 v Saudi Sportswashing Machine, 5-1 v Sunderland, 3-0 v Stoke) that we'd never have got under AVB in a million years, shows that actually, IMO, you could have put a blind donkey on that touch-line after AVB left and nothing would have changed.

We'd still have been a group of very talented players, poorly coached, with little idea of how to play together, and pretty much left to their own devices to use their own individual talent to do something, ANYTHING, to help.

How ANYONE can say the results, or performances have suddenly dropped off alarmingly since AVB left, is beyond me. I mean what games have people been watching?

AVB this season = scrape by anyone rubbish/get murdered by anyone decent/lose a couple of games against rubbish we should have won
Sherwood this season = couple of dissapointing draws, but mostly easy wins v anyone rubbish, dishing out a few hammerings in the process/ get murdered by anyone decent

Neither team was particularly watchable, but Sherwood's results are definately better IMO and we look slightly more watchable and we are certainly a MASSIVELY better goal threat and our home form in particular has improved significantly against the poorer teams.

 

[Mulletperm]

Thanks for the intelligent and insightful response.

I now realise the error of my thought process and take it all back.

Thanks again for the debate.

Excuse the lack of insight, it was 3am when I posted and I was trying to settle my baby. Otherwise I would have given a more intelligent and well thought out response.
Suffice to say I disagree with your observations thoroughly.

 

[Raziel]

timing was wrong

the decision was right

This, timing +lack of adequate replacement (same thing effectively)

 

[Raziel]

AVB this season = scrape by anyone rubbish/get murdered by anyone decent/lose a couple of games against rubbish we should have won
Sherwood this season = couple of dissapointing draws, but mostly easy wins v anyone rubbish, dishing out a few hammerings in the process/ get murdered by anyone decent

I would agree with the above (don't agree with the easy wins bit, Sunderland was one of the few "easy" wins of seen all season and even then only in the 2nd half) and it's my opinion both managers haven't been good enough this season.

I would say what people reference when they say things have got worse under TS is the team style/strategy. Under AVB, you had an idea what we were trying to do (even if it was unattractive and execution didn't always work), and for long moments in the games we would have possession and look like a unit (until we got to final 3rd and ran out of ideas). Under TS, the style changes, the formation changes and at times the players look like they don't know what they are supposed to do, creates a view that we actually look worse.

 

[africanspurs]

I find it quite bizarre how people decide to use the final 5 or so league games of AVB's reign as the barometer of the team's defensive ability under him. I guess it suits the narrative though.

agreed

those were anomalies and i think by that point things had started to go wrong for him behind the scenes

 

[NWND]

I would agree with the above (don't agree with the easy wins bit, Sunderland was one of the few "easy" wins of seen all season and even then only in the 2nd half) and it's my opinion both managers haven't been good enough this season.

I would say what people reference when they say things have got worse under TS is the team style/strategy. Under AVB, you had an idea what we were trying to do (even if it was unattractive and execution didn't always work), and for long moments in the games we would have possession and look like a unit (until we got to final 3rd and ran out of ideas). Under TS, the style changes, the formation changes and at times the players look like they don't know what they are supposed to do, creates a view that we actually look worse.

But the formation, personnel and tactics changed all the time under AVB. Its just that AVB is excused for his cluelessness at every opportunity by a lot of people:

*Levy undermined him
*Baldini undermined him
*Sherwood undermined him
*The medical staff undermined him
*Ade & BAE undermined him
*He didn't get the players he needed
*He needed more time, he was putting in place a long term plan so ignore how terrible it is now
*He has a plan, we are a unit
*The thrashings are anomalies

Nothing bad about this season is AVB's fault and he is excused on every level.

Sherwood on the other hand:

*Inherited a great squad that any decent manager should make a better fist of
*Injury problems aren't an excuse as we have a great, big squad
*He's clueless tactically and chops and changes everything all the time
*He shouldn't get time as its terrible to watch and despite not having his own players, not having a fit squad, we should be doing better
*The thrashings are proof he's not cut out to be a good manager
*He's only doing ok because he played Adebayor
*Levy, Baldini, will SOMEONE undermine Sherwood, please?

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So what? What does it matter what I predicted? It has nothing to do with this discussion now. I said if we kept Bale we could challenge for the title. I said once he was sold that if we used the money well we could still be up there. Once it became clear that yes, indeed, foreign players can take time to settle and the likes of Sandro are right in that regard I adjusted my expectations. Why do you keep denying that foreign players (particularly 7 at once) may take some time to perform at an optimum level?

I don't see why my bullishness and excitement at the start of the season has anything to do with what we are discussing now. I'm an idiot fan. I've admitted I was wrong on many occasions on that score and I don't mind. I'm not on the board of the club and I'm not paid to make the strategic decisions that should see us successful.

The way you're wording it now wasn't the way it happened. After bale was sold and AFTER the 7 new foreign signings you still claimed we would be right up there and that you're happy the board have supported AVB.

If you had voiced your concerns about the 7 signings adjusting to the premiership back then i wouldn't have a problem with what you're saying. If you raised concerns about the board not supporting AVB again i would have no problem with the things you say now. It's only after everything goes wrong that you start slowly shifting blame onto the board, onto Levy, onto anyone bar AVB. There were posters that claimed that certain things would be issue but you definitely didn't until he's sacked.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Im not BOL and i never said anything about being in with a chance of 3rd last season so it's not my debate.

If you guys want to get that precious about semantics then im not particularly interested in going any further tbh - and in all honesty it's not really the main point of the debate we're having and im sure it was said in jest initially.

No he's already said it wasn't.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The way you're wording it now wasn't the way it happened. After bale was sold and AFTER the 7 new foreign signings you still claimed we would be right up there and that you're happy the board have supported AVB.

If you had voiced your concerns about the 7 signings adjusting to the premiership back then i wouldn't have a problem with what you're saying. If you raised concerns about the board not supporting AVB again i would have no problem with the things you say now. It's only after everything goes wrong that you start slowly shifting blame onto the board, onto Levy, onto anyone bar AVB. There were posters that claimed that certain things would be issue but you definitely didn't until he's sacked.

So sue me for not being a fortune teller. I guess I can have no opinion now because I was optimistic when the season started?

I shift the blame onto Levy and have made countless arguments as to why. Because knowing more about the situation than we did in the summer we can make a better judgement about his decision making. And he's made too many bad decisions for me.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What do you think is more difficult? To finish 7th with the squad they had and the budget they had or to finish 4th ahead of a Chelsea that had gotten their act together, an Arsenal that never fail to get there, a United under Fergie and a City with oil money?

AVB had the much more difficult task, ergo more pressure. I think to keep saying 'despite the pressure' about Rodgers is nonsense. His only pressure was to maintain status quo. To attain the bare minimum. Benitez was sacked having taken them from 2nd to 7th. Hodgson had them near the bottom of the league. Dalglish had them 8th. Rodgers was in a position where he could make the relatively simple jump from 8th to 7th and as long as he showed evidence of a system of play it would constitute an improvement.

I do think it was more difficult for AVB and he failed.

Rodgers succeeded when it was easier, then went on to succeed when it was much - much harder this season. But it wasn't as easy last season as you make it out to be. And worth noting that as "low pressure" "bare minimum" "just maintain the status quo" as that job was he took over where Benitez, Hodgson and Dalglish had failed to keep them happy. His job wasn't just to keep them where they were, but to make them stronger long term - relatively quickly.

We will never know how it would have been had the roles been reversed, but whatever the situations Rodgers succeeded and AVB failed. When it was certainly possible for the outcome to have been different.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So sue me for not being a fortune teller. I guess I can have no opinion now because I was optimistic when the season started?

I shift the blame onto Levy and have made countless arguments as to why. Because knowing more about the situation than we did in the summer we can make a better judgement about his decision making. And he's made too many bad decisions for me.

I think you're purposely missing the point tbh.

underestimating the amount of time new signings need to adjust to this league is one thing but how exactly can your opinion go from:

being happy that the board supporting AVB with the new signings to claiming he wasn't supported in being allowed to bring the players he wants in. I mean wtf? you only recently still mention Moutinho as evidence he "wasn't supported" but totally neglect to bring up the 7 new signings that you previously claimed was evidence the board supported the manager in the transfer market.