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The decision to fire AVB

kinkygerbil said:
My view is that he should have stayed till the Summer even if the Plan was to get rid of him then.

We are much worse off now than when we had him in Charge, we look clueless and rudderless and concede goals for fun. Starting to realise there was a reason AVB played the way he did, our defence is rubbish.
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I think that he would have stayed until the summer if he hadn't fallen out with half the club behind the scenes. Once this happened, his position became untenable which he appears to have also recognised.
 
milo said:
So why didn't he start last season like that? We changed formation a few times in his first season and it was only after Christmas that he settled on Bale in the free role with the rest of the team set up to support him.

I don't disagree that AVB is at heart a safety first coach by the way. His fondness of big, athletic central midfielders aptly illustrates this. I just think that the handling of Bale last season was a pragmatic solution to trying to get the most out of a misfiring team short on attacking options.
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Like Moutinho and Modric you mean?
 
The thing about AVB's tactics is that i called it all along.

I said after the draw to either Norwich or WBA last season (it's in the match thread i think so you can check) that i GUARANTEE we will be having the same problems at home if he persists with the tactics he adopted in that game. I said we're closing down far too much when we should be allowing the opposition to get 'comfortable' and let them have possession in non threatening areas.

I then went on to say that i think we're going to be a great away team under him but at home we will never be consistent and that's EXACTLY what happened.
 
kinkygerbil said:
My view is that he should have stayed till the Summer even if the Plan was to get rid of him then.

We are much worse off now than when we had him in Charge, we look clueless and rudderless and concede goals for fun. Starting to realise there was a reason AVB played the way he did, our defence is rubbish.
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Sorry, but its complete rubbish that we are "much worse off now" than when we had AVB in charge. If anything its been a lot more entertaining watching us and our points to games ratio has been better.

So to say we are much worse off now is contrary to, well, just about any piece of actual evidence I can think of. Its just simply not true, if anything the opposite has been the case and that if anything the fact that a clueless novice like Sherwood can actually implement simple improvements and actually have us maintain and even improve slightly on the form of AVB's team, despite being "rudderless" and "clueless" as you say, is a damning reflection on the job he was doing, or not doing.

If anything results/performances under Sherwood show that we could have put anyone in charge and not really suffered much, therefore leading to the decision to fire AVB being the right one, and proof of the pudding being we really couldn't have got much worse, so we had nothing to lose.
 
NWND said:
Sorry, but its complete rubbish that we are "much worse off now" than when we had AVB in charge. If anything its been a lot more entertaining watching us and our points to games ratio has been better.

So to say we are much worse off now is contrary to, well, just about any piece of actual evidence I can think of. Its just simply not true, if anything the opposite has been the case and that if anything the fact that a clueless novice like Sherwood can actually implement simple improvements and actually have us maintain and even improve slightly on the form of AVB's team, despite being "rudderless" and "clueless" as you say, is a damning reflection on the job he was doing, or not doing.

If anything results/performances under Sherwood show that we could have put anyone in charge and not really suffered much, therefore leading to the decision to fire AVB being the right one, and proof of the pudding being we really couldn't have got much worse, so we had nothing to lose.
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I think that is a symptom of people looking at the West Ham game in TS' first one in charge and saying we played better just because we played at a quicker tempo. I think we've had a tonne of really bad performances under TS that people are calling good just because we got the ball forward quicker. I don't equate that to better performance at all. Most of the time we've looked devoid of any sort of plan and have been frankly embarrassing at the back.
 
Robspur12 said:
Off the top of my head the only team I can think of that played like we did with Bale was Argentina in the 1986 World Cup. I'll turn that question around can you name me any team that had a tactic so reliant upon one player to the detriment of any other attacker?
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Liverpool - Suarez
Liverpool - Torres
Arsenal - RVP
Utd - Ronaldo
Chelsea - Drogba
Saudi Sportswashing Machine - Ba
Spurs (current) - Ade

That's off the top of my head in our league in the last few years.
 
scaramanga said:
Liverpool - Suarez
Liverpool - Torres
Arsenal - RVP
Utd - Ronaldo
Chelsea - Drogba
Saudi Sportswashing Machine - Ba
Spurs (current) - Ade

That's off the top of my head in our league in the last few years.
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Except most of them are completely untrue bar MAYBE Demba Ba when he was in his goalscoring form and RVP.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I think that is a symptom of people looking at the West Ham game in TS' first one in charge and saying we played better just because we played at a quicker tempo. I think we've had a tonne of really bad performances under TS that people are calling good just because we got the ball forward quicker. I don't equate that to better performance at all. Most of the time we've looked devoid of any sort of plan and have been frankly embarrassing at the back.
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Just like under AVB then. We have definately not been any worse under Sherwood, no way. To say otherwise really stretches your credibility and does yourself a diservice but we DO get the ball forward quicker, do play the better players in the squad consistently and we do create more chances, score many more goals and win more points.
 
scaramanga said:
Liverpool - Suarez
Liverpool - Torres
Arsenal - RVP
Utd - Ronaldo
Chelsea - Drogba
Saudi Sportswashing Machine - Ba
Spurs (current) - Ade

That's off the top of my head in our league in the last few years.
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But playing a lone striker is not the same as putting in place tactics that rely on one player to the detriment of other attacking players.
 
Kingdawson said:
Except most of them are completely untrue bar MAYBE Demba Ba when he was in his goalscoring form and RVP.
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None of them are any less true than us relying entirely on Bale.

I can't remember which of our posters sytematically took apart the lazy falsehood that Bale won us our matches single-handedly but it was interesting to see. Went mostly without response though as it didn't fit in with preconceived opinions.
 
Robspur12 said:
But playing a lone striker is not the same as putting in place tactics that rely on one player to the detriment of other attacking players.
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I didn't say it was. What all the above teams have in common is one player head and shoulder s above everyone else in goalscoring terms. So that player naturally ends up doing more than the rest.

The only time this doesn't happen is when a team has a wealth of talent so that world class players don't really stand out so much.
 
scaramanga said:
None of them are any less true than us relying entirely on Bale.

I can't remember which of our posters sytematically took apart the lazy falsehood that Bale won us our matches single-handedly but it was interesting to see. Went mostly without response though as it didn't fit in with preconceived opinions.
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I'm with you on this. We certainly relied on Bale a lot last season but any team with a player of that quality probably would too. Saying that we were a one man team also ignores the growing importance that Dempsey had as the season progressed.

I find it odd that a manager altering formations and tactics so that he gets the best out of his most effective player is being used as criticism. Do people criticising him for this think that we would have been better leaving him on the left?
 
scaramanga said:
None of them are any less true than us relying entirely on Bale.

I can't remember which of our posters sytematically took apart the lazy falsehood that Bale won us our matches single-handedly but it was interesting to see. Went mostly without response though as it didn't fit in with preconceived opinions.
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Well actually Scaramanga they are.

I've already done Liverpools win loss record with and without Suarez before and they've been winning games fine without him (this was when some poster was trying to argue last season that Liverpool rely on Suarez more than we do/did Bale:lol:). They also manage to score goals fine without him too.
 
milo said:
I'm with you on this. We certainly relied on Bale a lot last season but any team with a player of that quality probably would too. Saying that we were a one man team also ignores the growing importance that Dempsey had as the season progressed.

I find it odd that a manager altering formations and tactics so that he gets the best out of his most effective player is being used as criticism. Do people criticising him for this think that we would have been better leaving him on the left?
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It gets criticised when it's clear that's the main gameplan with No back up option. Relying on your star player is fine but there has to be another option if it's not working and it's clear we had absolutely no other option. It was 'give the ball to Bale and lets see what he can do' every game.

All those names Scaramanga mentioned are nowhere near the level of the way we relied on Bale because their respective teams had clear fall back options (with the exception of the two i mentioned).
 
milo said:
I'm with you on this. We certainly relied on Bale a lot last season but any team with a player of that quality probably would too. Saying that we were a one man team also ignores the growing importance that Dempsey had as the season progressed.

I find it odd that a manager altering formations and tactics so that he gets the best out of his most effective player is being used as criticism. Do people criticising him for this think that we would have been better leaving him on the left?
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I am not disagreeing that there are lots of teams who may have one outstanding player and would utilise this player to the max for the team. The key point I am making is that in bale's case the tactic was to the detriment of the other attacking players in particular Ade. When bale didn't play the team overall struggled to muster anything in an attacking sense let alone score; our over reliance on Bale spilled over into our attacking play this season in the sense that we were so use to having a player creating things out of nothing that we did not have a system in place to create chances without him. As for Dempsey I think you are over stating his influence. If he had been that good why was he shipped out so readily at the start of the season? Or is that yet another AVB enigma?
 
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