'Soldier beheaded' outside barracks in Woolwich

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Im afraid you are clapping a comment which is just as ignorant as a person who claims all muslims are terrorists.

I trust, given my last response above, you will offer me the respect and decency of apologizing for calling me 'ignorant'. You might not agree, but 'ignorant'...that's a big word and I'd love to see you back it up.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Norway did class that as terrorism, that was one of the things he was convicted of.

Norway definitely did but the media certainly did not (at least not initially). Even when there was sufficient evidence which confirmed it was an act of terrorism they still preferred to label him a "psychopath" instead..rarely using the term "terrorist". Only when he was convicted of Terrorism did they gradually start directing the term at him.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Steff - what's the difference with the way some were jumping to the conclusion he was a radical Muslim and the way you are saying he's a hood rat/thug life gangster?

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Thought you wouldn't.

Look, the word justify may not convey what I was looking for when I posted that in the middle of a night shift last night.
However, there are those, who seem to solely want to put this down to the actions of someone mentally dsiturbed or on drugs.

Personally, I refuse to accept that.

I've been quite moderate in my posts in this thread so far, but to me and many others, this crime was carried out in the name of Islam, whether Islam backed it or not, and therefore those trying to blame it on drugs or mental condition are just wrong, and it smacks of a type of justification for the act.

I'll take that bait Crawley.
Are you suggesting that the opinions I have stated are a 'type of justification' for the act? Seriously?
Do you think the ONLY way someone can condemn these acts is to also condemn Islam?
It appears that this clown shoe was a 'Christian' before converting. Should we then assume that perhaps he took the Old Testament a little too far?
This arsehole has as much to do with 'faith' as Ray Charles does with brain surgery, and I think it's a sad sad day when arseholes like the EDL jump up and put their fudging balaclavas on and run around the place USING this as a touch-paper to start some sort of race/faith war.

If it turns out he was a devout, 100% practicing man of faith with a clear plan, then I owe you an apology and you will get it mate. In the meanwhile, you should accept that holding a view such as mine is NOT a 'type of justification' for the act.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

yep agree with that, too many people want to pussy foot around and refuse to even think that it was an Islamist led murder. Im afraid to say but there is too much lea way given to facilitate islam. To try and apply sharia law to non muslims in the uk then fudge right off

The POINT is this arsehole wouldn't know Sharia Law if it hit him in the face. And of course! Sharia Law is not a part of our culture and should absolutely NOT be tolerated if directed towards our culture and society.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Steff - what's the difference with the way some were jumping to the conclusion he was a radical Muslim and the way you are saying he's a hood rat/thug life gangster?

Probably very little in the end. I made my judgement on the minute and a half of footage I saw and the little history I read about the guy. I'm interested in the point you're trying to make.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

condemning Islam for these acts is wrong, obviously but i think there's something to be said for the fact that as a community and or faith that there isn't enough done to tackle the fundamentalist/extremist issue. all this crap about they aren't real muslims they don't understand the faith doesn't help solve anything - there are people that hide under the Muslim banner and recruit people from the faith, using the faith (albeit in a twisted way) to spread evil/create terror - more needs to be done by the leaders of the communities and probably the community itself to root out these people.


someone used a football hooliganism analogy earlier, quite fitting in a way - it wasn't until the clubs faced up to the problems that a small number of their support was causing and worked with the government that anything really got done about it.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

condemning Islam for these acts is wrong, obviously but i think there's something to be said for the fact that as a community and or faith that there isn't enough done to tackle the fundamentalist/extremist issue. all this crap about they aren't real muslims they don't understand the faith doesn't help solve anything - there are people that hide under the Muslim banner and recruit people from the faith, using the faith (albeit in a twisted way) to spread evil/create terror - more needs to be done by the leaders of the communities and probably the community itself to root out these people.


someone used a football hooliganism analogy earlier, quite fitting in a way - it wasn't until the clubs faced up to the problems that a small number of their support was causing and worked with the government that anything really got done about it.

Did you read what I posted a few posts above yours? The bit about how communities need to make sure that integration culturally is initiated and carried out a lot more?

Of course you're right. More needs to be done by community leaders. but let's be honest here, when anyone who remotely 'looks like' a muslim (a glib term BTW because it is as 'ignorant' as it's intended to sound) gets roundly pilloried by everyone because of isolated acts like this, then who's going to feel comfortable standing up and leading a house-cleaning? It'd really be something if people would take a step back from their 24 hour news orgies and realize that radicalism is something best fought by polarizing, and excluding, the radicals, and NOT anyone who's faith might also sadly include a few of these tin-pot arseholes and their hate-mongering.

As for hooliganism, sorry, that's a whole other discussion and one we can hopefully have next season over a pint. But to use my point above and apply it to hooliganism, it was the day that football clubs and the government decided NOT to think of 'all football supporters' as 'the same' that change was able to be made. In a sense, what needs to happen here is a very swift 'divide & conquer' strategy, whereby the decent members of the muslim communities feel safe enough (and know they will have the support from the larger communities) to identify and ostracize radicals.
The radicals must, indeed, be snuffed out, however someone needs to tell the media and those tossers with the EDL that running around the streets wearing balaclavas looking to beat up 'muslims' or whatever will NOT help this process.

In the spirit of debate and knowing that we ALL agree these crimes were heinous to the core...

 

[Roy1983]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Steff, whether he knows the ins and out of Islam or not, he clearly holds religious views that were instrumental in what he done. Is this in doubt?

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

It's pretty damn ironic that the poster who has previously said that black people act as victims and that they should "get over it" is the same person that says this incident shows why racism is still alive. When a black man watches video footage of hundreds of years of oppression and slavery he really needs to get over it. When this incident happens yesterday it proves why racism is still alive.

 

[Roy1983]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

It's pretty damn ironic that the poster who has previously said that black people act as victims and that they should "get over it" is the same person that says this incident shows why racism is still alive. When a black man watches video footage of hundreds of years of oppression and slavery he really needs to get over it. When this incident happens yesterday it proves why racism is still alive.

I appreciate this is a sensitive issue but black slavery is nothing to do with the discussion so why the need to bring it in? Marks point is valid in that incidents like this invoke hatred towards the individuals that carry them out. Shouting things like they did automatically makes people think badly of the Muslim beliefs (Not all Muslim people but the radicals views) and is only natural.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Did you read what I posted a few posts above yours? The bit about how communities need to make sure that integration culturally is initiated and carried out a lot more?

i think more needs to be done the government as well if im honest - i can see why things turn out the way they do when our immigration policy seems to amount to chuck everyone of the same race/religion/nationality in the same area and leave them to it. hows anyone meant to integrate in to British society if they come here from a middle eastern Islamic country and plunged straight in to an inner city estate populated with immigrants?

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

I appreciate this is a sensitive issue but black slavery is nothing to do with the discussion so why the need to bring it in? Marks point is valid in that incidents like this invoke hatred towards the individuals that carry them out. Shouting things like they did automatically makes people think badly of the Muslim beliefs (Not all Muslim people but the radicals views) and is only natural.

Black has nothing to do with the discussion but it's fine for him to refer to me as Malcolm X? that's ok though yes?

How is his point valid when he makes a different point every week depending on the argument? How can an act of oppression and violence result in his belief that "people need to get over it" but the incident yesterday results in him claiming that it shows why racism is still around. The guy justifies racism yesterday yet shows complete disregard for things that don't relate to him. You can't have it both ways, either both justifies racism or we have to get over both.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

i think more needs to be done the government as well if im honest - i can see why things turn out the way they do when our immigration policy seems to amount to chuck everyone of the same race/religion/nationality in the same area and leave them to it. hows anyone meant to integrate in to British society if they come here from a middle eastern Islamic country and plunged straight in to an inner city estate populated with immigrants?

Interesting point...unfortunately, the only way to really integrate is to welcome. And I fear that right now, in 2013, what I have just said would be considered 'pandering' and 'leftyism' to many. The polarization is in such swing right now that frankly, it seems in the eyes of the 'average Joe' one radical muslim = 100,000 peaceful muslims in the public eye, because there is little doubt that national tolerance appears to have flown out of the window based on the ugly actions, and dubious words, of a couple.

I think the most interesting thing would be for people to stop focussing so hard on our immigration policy, and turn attentions to the fact that within communities there are small pockets of home-grown, never-left-the-country radicals; where are they coming from? Why are they growing? How we can stop that? That's a major question which no-one is asking because immigration is an easy target. The truth is, the problems lie deeper than that now...

 

[Gordinho]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Steff, whether he knows the ins and out of Islam or not, he clearly holds religious views that were instrumental in what he done. Is this in doubt?

A twisted mentality is not the same as his religious views being responsible. The likes of A**** C****** prey on vulnerable people waiting to be turned just as surely as a paedophile grooms his prey.

The rubbish he spoke on TV show he was a mass of contradictions, a Brit talking about how "women in our country have to witness this every day", he was in his own country. He used biblical quotes from his previous Christian life, no radical Moslem would use these quotes. He was in fact a rebel without a clue until A**** C****** turned up and indoctrinated him with his twisted beliefs.

And make no mistake, I'm not apologising for him or portraying him as a victim, he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew it had to be beyond the pale to satisfy the sick bloodlust instilled in him by others.

 

[Roy1983]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

I don't even know who Malcolm X is so please excuse my ignorance. Genuinely.

I'm only talking about this thread and the only point I can think that's relevant is that these two nutters were Islamic extremists.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Steff, whether he knows the ins and out of Islam or not, he clearly holds religious views that were instrumental in what he done. Is this in doubt?

Mate, I would question whether this bloke knew anything of Islam beyond this specific, radicalized hate message splinter group. To me those are not necessarily religious views. Again, if he is found to be a highly knowledgeable and dedicated muslim radical, then I will hold my hands up and say I'm wrong. But I'll place a bet his spare time was not spent studying the Quran more than it was louting about and mischief-making...

 

[Parklaner81]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Norway definitely did but the media certainly did not (at least not initially). Even when there was sufficient evidence which confirmed it was an act of terrorism they still preferred to label him a "psychopath" instead..rarely using the term "terrorist". Only when he was convicted of Terrorism did they gradually start directing the term at him.

So what's your point? Are you objecting to this particular incident being labelled as terrorism?

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

A twisted mentality is not the same as his religious views being responsible. The likes of A**** C****** prey on vulnerable people waiting to be turned just as surely as a paedophile grooms his prey.

The rubbish he spoke on TV show he was a mass of contradictions, a Brit talking about how "women in our country have to witness this every day", he was in his own country. He used biblical quotes from his previous Christian life, no radical Moslem would use these quotes. He was in fact a rebel without a clue until A**** C****** turned up and indoctrinated him with his twisted beliefs.

And make no mistake, I'm not apologising for him or portraying him as a victim, he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew it had to be beyond the pale to satisfy the sick bloodlust instilled in him by others.

=D>

(sigh) Thank you for helping articulate some of what I've been trying to say.

 

[Gordinho]

Re: 'Soldier beheaded' oustide barracks in Woolwich

Black has nothing to do with the discussion but it's fine for him to refer to me as Malcolm X? that's ok though yes?

How is his point valid when he makes a different point every week depending on the argument? How can an act of oppression and violence result in his belief that "people need to get over it" but the incident yesterday results in him claiming that it shows why racism is still around. The guy justifies racism yesterday yet shows complete disregard for things that don't relate to him. You can't have it both ways, either both justifies racism or we have to get over both.

KD, please stop derailling the conversation, I've supported you when you've been wronged but you're in the wrong this time.

There is a world of difference between saying get over something that happened to your race or countrymen before you were born and the events of yesterday.

I'll take this convo to PM if you like to keep the thread on track. Cheers.