Quacks & Pseudoscience

[braineclipse]

Are you denying he saw the doctor before he died?

You really haven't picked up on milo and myself asking for a source for your earlier claim? Are you even reading other posts or just trolling at this point?

 

[milo]

Just in case it was just the BBC that got it wrong, I have found some other accounts of the inquest.

Wales Online said

A man who died at the height of a measles epidemic in Swansea died as a result of the disease, an inquest in the city heard today

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/swansea-man-who-died-during-4802699

ITV reported

A young father who died in the South Wales measles epidemic failed to have an inoculation as a child, an inquest has heard. Dad-of-one Gareth Colfer-Williams, 25, was among more than 1,200 infected by measles in the outbreak but the only one to die.

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/story/2013-04-19/suspected-measles-death/

 

[JPBB]

I'm not qualified to give a diagnosis and even if I was I would not dream of doing it remotely.

I am surprised that a diagnosis of autism has been given that early though because many of the symptoms are not normally noticeable until about the age of two.

I'm also a bit surprised that a doctor would say that the brain is reprogramming itself.

From the video I think that even to untrained eye that autism seems the correct diagnosis. He is a over two now. (but not walking).

And yes. I agree. Very surprising. And frankly typical of the flimflam that parents of vaccine damaged kids have to put up with from doctors.

 

[milo]

From the video I think that even to untrained eye that autism seems the correct diagnosis. He is a over two now. (but not walking).

It is not normally possible to diagnose autism until children start to socially interact with others. Before the age of two, most kids just don't do that.

 

[JPBB]

Just in case it was just the BBC that got it wrong, I have found some other accounts of the inquest.

Wales Online said



http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/swansea-man-who-died-during-4802699

ITV reported



http://www.itv.com/news/wales/story/2013-04-19/suspected-measles-death/

So your sources say

Mr Rogers said it was thought one explanation for his symptoms could have been a reaction to one of the “detox drugs” he was taking and he was told to call the surgery if the problems persisted or worsened.

 

[JPBB]

It is not normally possible to diagnose autism until children start to socially interact with others. Before the age of two, most kids just don't do that.

OK. So what are you saying. The seizure and change in development pattern and the loss of babbling speak was just a coincidence? And the seizures were the brain reprogramming itself? Immediately after the DTaP? Or you saying just wait and see what happens? And then may be they will be out of time to make a claim.

You see this woman feels let down by the system. She trusted you. She vaccinated because it was irresponsible not to. And then when something goes wrong, it is just a coincidence. And she had a choice. And they explained the risks to her (they did - this is true).

She is full of hate for the system and wants those that spread the lies to be punished. And she will never stop fighting until she gets justice for her kid.

I said I understand.

 

[milo]

So your sources say

Mr Rogers said it was thought one explanation for his symptoms could have been a reaction to one of the “detox drugs” he was taking and he was told to call the surgery if the problems persisted or worsened.

That does not address the point as to whether he had measles or not. The inquest found that he did and that he died from complications from it.

You have failed to provide any evidence to support your claim that he didn't. Of the two, I will trust the inquest thanks.

 

[milo]

OK. So what are you saying. The seizure and change in development pattern and the loss of babbling speak was just a coincidence? And the seizures were the brain reprogramming itself? Immediately after the DTaP? Or you saying just wait and see what happens? And then may be they will be out of time to make a claim.

You see this woman feels let down by the system. She trusted you. She vaccinated because it was irresponsible not to. And then when something goes wrong, it is just a coincidence. And she had a choice. And they explained the risks to her (they did - this is true).

She is full of hate for the system and wants those that spread the lies to be punished. And she will never stop fighting until she gets justice for her kid.

I said I understand.

I don't know why you are trying to direct your anger at me. I am not a medical practitioner and am no more part of the system than you are.

I would not pretend to diagnose the child or what could be the cause of the problem. Based on the lack of knowledge and inability to understand basic scientific concepts that you have displayed on this thread, I would respectfully suggest that you shouldn't either.

I was merely expressing surprise that an autism diagnosis woukd be given so young.

The National Autistic Society say on childhood diagnosis

Children can be diagnosed as autistic when they’re quite young, in some cases from the age of two.

http://www.autism.org.uk/about/diagnosis/children.aspx

 

[JPBB]

That does not address the point as to whether he had measles or not. The inquest found that he did and that he died from complications from it.

You have failed to provide any evidence to support your claim that he didn't. Of the two, I will trust the inquest thanks.

OK. Lets go slowly. He sees the doctor feeling unwell just before he dies. He is covered in a rash. it is the middle of the worst measles outbreak in modern times. Measles is as you have pointed out an incredibly dangerous killer disease. This guy is very ill with massive unlying health issues.

Does the doctor diagnose measles. The answer is no. They say it is an adverse reaction to the drugs he is taking.

Did the doctor make a mistake? I am guessing you say yes (s)he did?

 

[braineclipse]

So your sources say

Mr Rogers said it was thought one explanation for his symptoms could have been a reaction to one of the “detox drugs” he was taking and he was told to call the surgery if the problems persisted or worsened.

Milo is posting the sources for his claims. You can disagree or agree, and the validity of the source can be discussed, but he's open and honest about what supports his claim.

You're not even posting the sources for your claims in this issue, despite repeated requests. This is the opposite of open and honest.

OK. So what are you saying. The seizure and change in development pattern and the loss of babbling speak was just a coincidence? And the seizures were the brain reprogramming itself? Immediately after the DTaP? Or you saying just wait and see what happens? And then may be they will be out of time to make a claim.

You see this woman feels let down by the system. She trusted you. She vaccinated because it was irresponsible not to. And then when something goes wrong, it is just a coincidence. And she had a choice. And they explained the risks to her (they did - this is true).

She is full of hate for the system and wants those that spread the lies to be punished. And she will never stop fighting until she gets justice for her kid.

I said I understand.

We can't really say anything about this specific case. It's anecdotal, no evidence is available to us and we have no expert opinions or diagnosis available.

You're saying this kind of thing has a fairly high prevalence. Why wouldn't it show up in studies then? This kind of thing should be easy to detect if it happens with the kind of frequency you're saying.

Anecdotal evidence does not trump wide scientific evidence and multiple studies. Doesn't matter how many anecdotes you recite.

Enough is known about the fallibility of human judgement and memory to make us extremely doubtful of this kind of anecdotal evidence.

 

[braineclipse]

OK. Lets go slowly. He sees the doctor feeling unwell just before he dies. He is covered in a rash. it is the middle of the worst measles outbreak in modern times. Measles is as you have pointed out an incredibly dangerous killer disease. This guy is very ill with massive unlying health issues.

Does the doctor diagnose measles. The answer is no. They say it is an adverse reaction to the drugs he is taking.

Did the doctor make a mistake? I am guessing you say yes (s)he did?

Not. Slow. Enough.

First. Post. Your Source.

 

[JPBB]

I don't know why you are trying to direct your anger at me. I am not a medical practitioner and am no more part of the system than you are.

I would not pretend to diagnose the child or what could be the cause of the problem. Based on the lack of knowledge and inability to understand basic scientific concepts that you have displayed on this thread, I would respectfully suggest that you shouldn't either.

I was merely expressing surprise that an autism diagnosis woukd be given so young.

The National Autistic Society say on childhood diagnosis



http://www.autism.org.uk/about/diagnosis/children.aspx

Why are you fighting me of this? Are you saying that autism diagnosis is impossible before two, Are you saying that she or I am lying?

I understand that you would never accept that the seizure was caused by DTaP led to the autism.

But to blindly deny that the kid's autism diagnosis is, well I think at best, uncaring. And also typical of the provaxxer who will fight every single issue even if it is patently unjust, unfair or plain wrong.

And I warned her that these are the tactics of Pharma and the medical establishment. They wear you down so they hope you give up.

She said she would never give up.

I said. I know.

 

[JPBB]

Not. Slow. Enough.

First. Post. Your Source.

We are using milo's sources. BBC and Walesonline. They should be adequate.

Did the doctor see him shortly before he died? Yes. Did he have a rash? Yes. Did the doc diagnose measles? No. Did the doctor make a mistake? No.

Do you disagree with any of that?

 

[braineclipse]

Ah yes. A personal favourite. The Swansea epidemic propaganda war and the strange case of Gareth Colfer-Williams who died from measles without actually having measles.

Let the war begin...

Except he was not positive for measles. His bloods were negative. The only indication was a rash.

He had seen a doctor the day before he died who had look at the rash and said it was an allergic reaction to his meds (odd as there are no adverse effects to any med). Despite being in the middle of the worst measles epidemic of all time and the measles rash being one of the most recognisable, the doctor failed to diagnosis measles. Either he was incompetent or Colfer-Williams did not have measles. Which way are you going on this. (neither route ends well for the pro vaxxers)

You see I am not saying it was a medical error. You are saying that. I am saying he did not have measles.

Was it also a medical error that his bloods were negative too?

I guess it just one of "coincidences" so loved by the pro vaxxers. Never mind we'll just say it's measles anyway.

Your kids dies straight after a vaccine. It's a coincidence. Your kid develops autism immediately after a vaccine. It's a coincidence.

I talked to a mother last night who was told by a doctor when her kid was having a seizure after a vaccine that it was just the baby's brain "reprogramming" itself. And the autism that developed afterward was just , yes you guessed it, a "coincidence'.!!!!

And you wonder why we don't trust you.

We are using milo's sources. BBC and Walesonline. They should be adequate.

Did the doctor see him shortly before he died? Yes. Did he have a rash? Yes. Did the doc diagnose measles? No. Did the doctor make a mistake? No.

Do you disagree with any of that?

Your claims before. Not supported by Milo's sources as far as I can see. Sources you've called into question by saying "according to your sources" as a response to their conclusion.

What are the sources for your claims? You claimed repeatedly that he didn't have measles. So for the fifth or sixth or seventh time. What is your source?

You're making yourself look entirely unreliable by making these claims and not posting a source. More and more you look like a troll who is only looking to stir brick up and less an less you look like someone interested in a serious conversation.

Please. Pretty please with cherries and chocolate sauce on top. Can you post the source for your claims?

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

We are using milo's sources. BBC and Walesonline. They should be adequate.

Did the doctor see him shortly before he died? Yes. Did he have a rash? Yes. Did the doc diagnose measles? No. Did the doctor make a mistake? No.

Do you disagree with any of that?

I know I'm beating my head against a brick wall here. But......

Do you understand what a post-mortem is, why they are done and what they tell you?

 

[JPBB]

I know I'm beating my head against a brick wall here. But......

Do you understand what a post-mortem is, why they are done and what they tell you?

Oh yes, We will come on to the autopsy.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Oh yes, We will come on to the autopsy.

Let me guess............

The coroner and pathologist stood up in a court of law and lied about finding measles and subsequent Pneumonia because they were paid off by Big Pharma??

Am I right??

 

[JPBB]

No.

The pathologist did not lie. He did not say he had measles. Surprising as it was the cause of death.

 

[braineclipse]

@JPBB claiming that a man didn't have measles when the official inquest concluded that he had measles is an extraordinary claim. It's a claim against the opinions of experts who actually had direct access to the now unfortunately diseased young man. The people with the expertise you lack, with the access you don't have claimed that he had measles. You're claiming the opposite, it would take something special to even begin to believe it. For this you've not even provided ordinary evidence, never mind extraordinary. Not even a link to where you got this idea. Not even a reference to something we can look up. Nothing except re-stating your claim as if it was fact.

 

[JPBB]

I am saying that the Coroner did not say he died of measles. He didn't have the evidence.

He said he died of pneumonia

What he did say pneumonia was one of the “most likely” causes of death associated with measles.

The BBC did the rest.

Obviously the most useful evidence would be the pathology, autopsy and the reports.

I made a FOI request. Have a guess what the response was?