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Politics, politics, politics

ricky2tricky4city said:
You state that being in the EU creates wealth and prosperity.(blanket statement) I'm saying it doesn't for everyone.(PIGS) And I don't need an infographic to prove it.

Hell, even WE have a national debt we are struggling to put a dent in.

GDP is the total monetary value of all goods and services produced in an economic region. It's a gauge of the size of an economy but also a vanity figure, if that country is crippled by debt, just like any business that thinks that turnover is a dingdong swinger.

A valid question is how does that affect the EU long term and is it viable, sustainable and acceptable. Do we want to be part of that or around when the shake out happens?

I'm not siding with leave, just think its not the no brainer you suggest.

I am focusing on the economic and trading bloc issues as requested when you implied it was the most important aspect. I'll talk about the other things if you want me to.:)
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Very gracious of you! Check out US debt. They darent pay it back and maintain a constant debt because it balances their economy. Without it they would lose liquidity. Countries having debt is not necessarily intrinsically bad. The reason for the debt however is the banking crisis. Not the EU per say. Our debt likewise. You could argue that having the EU central bank has helped bail out otherwise failing banks and helped hold together what would be far worse off economies otherwise. If the EU wasn't in Greeks interests why did they want to stay in it?

But isn't Brexit about Britain and how we've done out the EU?
 
scaramanga said:
Because they're restricting free trade with the 85% of the world that isn't the EU. And that problem is getting worse:
GDP%20graph%20in%20PPP%20terms%202.JPG
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You don't think that is due to China and the Easts rise? We had pigs what about BRICS on the rise? Is there any doubt that emerging markets will grow further and overtake us? In which case I'd suggest the EU protecting and fighting our corner in the long term would be helpful.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Very gracious of you! Check out US debt. They darent pay it back and maintain a constant debt because it balances their economy. Without it they would lose liquidity. Countries having debt is not necessarily intrinsically bad. The reason for the debt however is the banking crisis. Not the EU per say. Our debt likewise. You could argue that having the EU central bank has helped bail out otherwise failing banks and helped hold together what would be far worse off economies otherwise. If the EU wasn't in Greeks interests why did they want to stay in it?

But isn't Brexit about Britain and how we've done out the EU?
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That, and Gordon Brown piling up on the existing debt during the early-mid 00's boom before the banking crisis occurred, to tell a more complete story.
 
SpurMeUp said:
You don't think that is due to China and the Easts rise? We had pigs what about BRICS on the rise? Is there any doubt that emerging markets will grow further and overtake us? In which case I'd suggest the EU protecting and fighting our corner in the long term would be helpful.
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I think it would be better to trade with them than to try and block trade in order to prop up failing internal industry.
 
SpurMeUp said:
My favorite posters are Brexiteers truth be told!

Day to day meeting people who don't know my preference, leavers I meet are passionate, come across as salt of the earth honest types. There is a lot to respect about the underlying motivations and desires behind Brexit. It shows there is motivate for collective improvement in politics. For me, the genuine shame is its the right ideas directed as the wrong vehicles. Sadly its not the EU but our government that needs shaking up - of course in my opinion. That's not to say the EU is perfect by any stretch. It's that the things people want can be delivered by the UK government imo. Hope that's not offending anyone.
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your such a flirt you old tart


agree about our government and Cameron(who I received a warning for on this site for slagging off, probably fairly so, GHod it seems like a long time ago) disgusted that just this week they did not agree to build that renewable tidal plant in wales, that is the future.

My distrust and dislike of the EU is how controlling it is, why not let us control our borders as long as we are not some sort of Trump racist and clearly we are not. Why not allows us to trade with who we want as long as we go by the rules when dealing with the EU.
 
Debt was low by historical standards, but absolutely should not have been on an upward trend 2003-2007 (or thereabouts). Had it continued on it's late 90's/early 00's trajectory the crisis would have had far less of an impact and the government would be servicing significantly less debt today.

I never suggested that the financial crisis wasn't responsible for the explosion of debt since 2008, I acknowledged it. I was pointing out that it wasn't the full story.
 
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Brown added several percentage points (5-7?) to the debt/gdp ratio between 2002 and 2007. During an economic boom. Even before factoring in that it had been on a downward trajectory beforehand, that's a pretty significant fraction.

But I can see there's little point in continuing this discussion. So let's agree to disagree.
 
milo said:
What I think it was was highly effective spin by Osborne which won them two terms in office. He managed to blame Labour for a US economic meltdown in the public's mind.

It was an easy explainer for the economic problems the country faced and provided cover for something he would have wanted to do regardless.
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I don't entirely disagree with what you're saying here. Where I differ from you is that I see and agree with the grains of truth in his argument that became the spin.

It was never 'Labour's financial crisis' or whatever the tories labelled it. At least, not wholly. As you point out, it originated in the US. Labour were however responsible for the regulatory regime of the time and so deserve some (not all) of the blame.

Similarly I feel that the charge of irresponsible borrowing preceding the crisis is entirely valid. I haven't criticised the Labour government for the borrowing undertaken in fighting the crisis. They did what needed to be done in the situation that erupted. But that situation would have been easier contained had they managed the public finances more prudently beforehand.
 
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