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Politics, politics, politics

It does. It's been cheap and easy to import them, so you don't train homegrown ones or incentivise that career path through pay and conditions. It's how neo-liberalism works - move the cheapest labour around to maximise profit, with no concern for society or humanity.

No British government could do anything about that because of freedom of movement and EU competition laws.

I agree it will get worse for a bit, because we've been so structurally damaged. But investment in skills and a high skilled work permit system will correct things in the medium-to-long term.

The EU has nothing to do with the number of UK citizens training to be doctors or nurses and we could have increased the numbers any time we wished but successive governments chose not to.

The govern could also have done something to reduce the number of qualified staff that it is losing.

If you train to be a doctor or a nurse, you are pretty much guaranteed to get a job at the end of it. Staff from overseas are only coming here to fill gaps that we cannot fill.

A reliance on foreign staff is unlikely to change any time soon because the government is not interested in addressing the underlying issues. The problem being that the toxic atmosphere in this country created by Brexit makes us far less attractive place to come and live.
 
We are Canada's 4th biggest trading partner after the US, China and Mexico, so while not tinkling off the EU is important, they do also have economic motives to sort arrangements with us asap.
 
We are Canada's 4th biggest trading partner after the US, China and Mexico, so while not tinkling off the EU is important, they do also have economic motives to sort arrangements with us asap.

Things would be exactly the same as they are now. We are unlikely to see significant changes between now and leaving the EU when the new arrangements lifetime is so limited.
 
The EU has nothing to do with the number of UK citizens training to be doctors or nurses and we could have increased the numbers any time we wished but successive governments chose not to.

The govern could also have done something to reduce the number of qualified staff that it is losing.

If you train to be a doctor or a nurse, you are pretty much guaranteed to get a job at the end of it. Staff from overseas are only coming here to fill gaps that we cannot fill.

A reliance on foreign staff is unlikely to change any time soon because the government is not interested in addressing the underlying issues. The problem being that the toxic atmosphere in this country created by Brexit makes us far less attractive place to come and live.

It does, because the availability of cheap labour from poorer parts of the continent keeps wages and conditions down, so it's not an attractive career for 18 year olds. The broken structures are caused by the capitalist race to the bottom and the economic imbalances of the EU.
 
Things would be exactly the same as they are now. We are unlikely to see significant changes between now and leaving the EU when the new arrangements lifetime is so limited.

Yes. And we'll likely want a very different deal with them too. For example as we don't produce enough to feed ourselves, we might want to lower tariffs on agriculture in a deal with Canada, whereas the EU are particularly protectionist about that because they are more ruralised.
 
Yes. And we'll likely want a very different deal with them too. For example as we don't produce enough to feed ourselves, we might want to lower tariffs on agriculture in a deal with Canada, whereas the EU are particularly protectionist about that because they are more ruralised.
Or we can allow Africa to start trading their way out of the poverty that the EU has helped inflict upon them in recent times.
 
I will say it again (view may be different if Corbyn wins but I doubt that will happen) I will be very surprised if immigration of unskilled labour is significantly less after Brexit. The difference will be they wont get the same rights, benefits, tax credits as native workers.
 
I will say it again (view may be different if Corbyn wins but I doubt that will happen) I will be very surprised if immigration of unskilled labour is significantly less after Brexit. The difference will be they wont get the same rights, benefits, tax credits as native workers.
Which is a plus for the UK, right? After all, that's pretty much all Cameron was asking the EU for when they sent him away.
 
Shinzo Abe was quoted late last year as saying that the TPP was essentially meaningless without the United States, and I think his (probably unintended) forthrightness reflects most of the conventional thinking on the subject at the moment.

The sizes of the economies involved are only a part of what made the TPP a viable proposition for its partners - and maybe not even the biggest part. As the article you linked points out, in the grand scheme of Asian geopolitics, the TPP was an attempt to limit China's ongoing attempts to build a parallel network of economic and diplomatic institutions that would eventually supplant U.S-sponsored institutions and trading relationships. Japan's geostrategic aims were closely tied to Washington's in this regard, which is why they were amenable to the prospect in the first place - the rapid trajectory towards regional hegemony that Beijing has experienced over the last two decades forced Tokyo to reconsider the importance of its remaining tariffs and protectionist measures within its national strategy.

To effectively fulfill its geostrategic purpose, the TPP was meant to draw in Asian countries like Malaysia and Vietnam, and ensconce them into trade partnerships with the United States and Japan that would act as a bulwark against growing Chinese attempts to exercise outright economic, military and diplomatic dominance in the East and South China Seas. The economic purpose of the deal was to liberalize trade,create common administrative and legal frameworks and generate growth across all its participating nations, of course, but the geostrategic element was equally important - to Tokyo, to Washington and to regional capitals hoping to stave off the prospect of being dominated by Beijing. And both the economic and geostrategic elements of the deal were completely reliant on the United States - the economic concessions and gains made by all parties across the long negotiating period were *entirely* predicated on gaining mostly free access to the 350m relatively wealthy, active consumers within the United States. And, likewise, the geostrategic aims of the deal were predicated on certain things. Namely, the comprehensive national power at the disposal of the United States in the Asia Pacific - the United States Seventh Fleet stationed at Yokosuka, the 40,000 U.S military personnel stationed across Japan as a whole, the Arleigh-Burke class destroyers conducting Freedom of Navigation patrols across the First Island Chain, the litany of U.S air assets at bases across Japan, South Korea and the Pacific Islands and the combined diplomatic, economic and military infrastructure across Asia that would allow Washington and its allies to confront Beijing with the threat of *forcing* compliance were the nations involved in the TPP to be threatened by Beijing for their participation or unwillingness to accede to Chinese aims in Asia.

As I said, every trade deal is *more* than just a trade deal. With the E.U, the geostrategic aim was to unite Europe as a bulwark against the prospect of strategic irrelevance - and with the TPP, it was to combat the rise of China as a power seeking regional hegemony in East Asia. If either Britain or Japan were to restart the TPP as it was originally negotiated, one of them would have to step into the shoes of the United States in order to keep the economic and geostrategic logic behind the deal alive. And neither is capable of doing so - especially the UK. As I mentioned, the UK's domestic market isn't big enough to make opening up an attractive prospect to Japan or other participating nations - and Britain has very little to offer the countries involved in the deal in terms of sector-specific expertise needed by all members, whether developed or developing. And from a geostrategic perspective, the UK can't give critical mass to anything anywhere - what Hanoi wants from a TPP-level partner, for example, is a willingness to stand up to Beijing and to protect Hanoi's sovereignty with force if necessary. Would Britain be willing to stand up to China to protect Vietnam's claims in the South China Sea ? London doesn't even whimper when Beijing cracks down in Hong Kong. And would it be willing to employ force to dissuade China from disrupting the trading relationships created by the TPP? The Type 45s can't even chug into the Persian Gulf without breaking down, there are almost no British assets on station anywhere east of Suez, and the whole prospect of the UK independently standing up to the juggernaut that is the PLA is utterly laughable - that sort of potency died in 1945, and has never returned since.

Only America could fill those roles. Which is why the TPP sans America is just a pipe dream, more or less. That's not to say that the countries involved couldn't slowly, painfully try to create a new deal with far fewer concessions and much-reduced geostrategic ambitions, but the UK can't really give critical mass to anything, is my point. I don't think you meant it that way, but my frustration is that a lot of people in the UK seem to think in that way - and that's just *wrong*.

All very true, but regardless of any trade deal the U.S isn't going to pull any of its military might from Asia.
 
Which is a plus for the UK, right? After all, that's pretty much all Cameron was asking the EU for when they sent him away.

No he wanted that and the same access to the EU free market, given the choice he was willing to forgo this to remain in the EU.

I do not think this would be a plus as I like a mixed economy with a lot of workers rights and welfare state, I know you would disagree.
 
All very true, but regardless of any trade deal the U.S isn't going to pull any of its military might from Asia.

Oh, I wasn't implying that they would. But the TPP was built on implictly extending the American umbrella to Vietnam, Malaysia and Southeast Asia more broadly - that is now unlikely to happen in a structured way. Events could still lead to such an outcome, but it will be more unplanned and organic than the TPP tried to be. And if anyone tried reviving the TPP as it was originally negotiated, the gaping question of how to provide that security umbrella *sans* active involvement by Washington will arise - and neither Japan nor Britain are capable of answering that question on their own in any significant way.
 
The EU has nothing to do with the number of UK citizens training to be doctors or nurses and we could have increased the numbers any time we wished but successive governments chose not to.

The govern could also have done something to reduce the number of qualified staff that it is losing.

If you train to be a doctor or a nurse, you are pretty much guaranteed to get a job at the end of it. Staff from overseas are only coming here to fill gaps that we cannot fill.

A reliance on foreign staff is unlikely to change any time soon because the government is not interested in addressing the underlying issues. The problem being that the toxic atmosphere in this country created by Brexit makes us far less attractive place to come and live.

i read somewhere a while back that it costs the NHS around 70k to train one UK nurse over 3 years. For that amount they can get 3 qualified EU nurses and pay them each around 20-25k a year. Thats why many potential UK nurses are being discouraged from joining the NHS. There arent enough training places for them. Instead the NHS has been actively holding recruitment fairs in certain european countries.
 
i read somewhere a while back that it costs the NHS around 70k to train one UK nurse over 3 years. For that amount they can get 3 qualified EU nurses and pay them each around 20-25k a year. Thats why many potential UK nurses are being discouraged from joining the NHS. There arent enough training places for them. Instead the NHS has been actively holding recruitment fairs in certain european countries.

Do you believe that the conservative party will in any way shape or form support something that ends up costing the government or more importantly for them big business more to employ people.

The whole thing about conservatives not wanting cheaper labour over here, stinks. Wage depression and removing power from the worker in form of competition. Is a cornerstone of conservative politics, anyone who thinks different need a to do some very basic reading.

Just realised that may have sounded quite shouty/aggressive... not meant to be mate.
 
So what's the upshot of May's speech then? Seems like a bit of a nothingburger that has managed to tinkle off the ardent leavers and remainers all at once, with only Tory MPs pretending that everything is fine and they are all as one.
 
If you want a laugh, have a look at the comments section of the Daily Mail, talking about May's speech. Full of very angry Ukippers who voted Tory at the last GE because someone told them "Brexit means Brexit."
Oh I need to do this!!!

Remember kids.... Brexit means Brexbrick
 
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