Politics, politics, politics

[milo]

the EU will deliberately delay any future EU-UK free trade deal. They have already started this by refusing to hold talks regarding the future trade deal alongside the withdrawal process.

The UK government agreed to the EU timetable on the first day of negotiations. We could have had more influence over this if the government had engaged with the EU in a constructive manner in the months after the referendum rather than throwing red meat to the eurosceptic press and Tory backbenchers. We lost all influence over this once we triggered A50.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Interesting. So he didn't say what you said he said. There is nothing in that report about "Schengen and Euro for all members, no national vetos etc".

"“My hope is on 30th March 2019, Europeans will wake up in union where they know we are respecting their values. Where full membership of Eurozone and Schengen Zone is standard for every member of European Union.”

"All but two member states are duty bound to join the Euro area. These member states need the support of a euro accession instrument."

The national vetoes are tied up in the European Council, which the European Commission is trying to muscle out. The theocracy reducing the role of the elected national leaders (a bit like the ayatollah in Iran)

 

[milo]

"“My hope is on 30th March 2019, Europeans will wake up in union where they know we are respecting their values. Where full membership of Eurozone and Schengen Zone is standard for every member of European Union.”

"All but two member states are duty bound to join the Euro area. These member states need the support of a euro accession instrument."

The national vetoes are tied up in the European Council, which the European Commission is trying to muscle out. The theocracy reducing the role of the elected national leaders (a bit like the ayatollah in Iran)

It's not mandating it though. He signalled increased support for countries seeking to join the Euro and qualified majority voting for EU foreign affairs. Hardly superstate stuff.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Interesting...

 

[r-u-s-x]

the EU will deliberately delay any future EU-UK free trade deal. They have already started this by refusing to hold talks regarding the future trade deal alongside the withdrawal process.

We want out - we can get out, this was the stated goal of Brexit.

I don't see how EU not giving us preferential treatment is punishment.

 

[Gutter Boy]

It's not mandating it though. He signalled increased support for countries seeking to join the Euro and qualified majority voting for EU foreign affairs. Hardly superstate stuff.

It constant creep. They know they can't get treaty change through anymore, so they shove it through in the small print.

Its always more Europe, when everyone outside their Brussels bubble wants much less.

 

[milo]

It constant creep. They know they can't get treaty change through anymore, so they shove it through in the small print.

Its always more Europe, when everyone outside their Brussels bubble wants much less.

I think that there will certainly be closer European integration once we are out of the way. The fact remains that we had a veto on all of this and it posed no threat to us. The Eurosceptic case is built on a bogeyman that doesn't exist.

 

[Gutter Boy]

We want out - we can get out, this was the stated goal of Brexit.

I don't see how EU not giving us preferential treatment is punishment.

I agree actually.

And because of that the EU should be secondary in our focus at the moment, compared to RoW relations

 

[r-u-s-x]

Think the policy is crap myself and so do those in charge hence us getting bent over in negotiations.

 

[DeleHarry]

We want out - we can get out, this was the stated goal of Brexit.

I don't see how EU not giving us preferential treatment is punishment.

well i hope thats the case and we get out as quickly and smoothly as possible.

 

[r-u-s-x]

well i hope thats the case and we get out as quickly and smoothly as possible.

we can do that tomorrow, we have always had Sovereignty as far as I am aware (from my reading) there is no law dictating continued payments or membership of institutions we can not negate locally - just let it run out BUT we would have no relationship with the EU, this is why we are bending over because those in power (in the UK) realize this is the worst outcome.

We will see but this is my reading of the current situation.

 

[milo]

well i hope thats the case and we get out as quickly and smoothly as possible.

I don't think that you can have both. An orderly exit will take time. How much time depends on our eventual destination.

 

[milo]

It's not mandating it though. He signalled increased support for countries seeking to join the Euro and qualified majority voting for EU foreign affairs. Hardly superstate stuff.

It is also worth remembering that Juncker is President of the Commission (civil service) and has no power to impose anything. It is the European Council (member governments) and European Parliament that hold the power and any changes would need to be agreed by member states.

 

[Gutter Boy]

It is also worth remembering that Juncker is President of the Commission (civil service) and has no power to impose anything. It is the European Council (member governments) and European Parliament that hold the power and any changes would need to be agreed by member states.

Commission = evil theocrats
Council = Merkel
Parliament = powerless 4th rate (not good enough to be an MP) politicians

A power grab by the Commission at the expense of the Council is very significant

Europe might actually work/survive if the Commission and Parliament were abolished and everything was run by the Council (i.e. a partnership of sovereign democratic national states)

 

[milo]

Commission = evil theocrats
Council = Merkel
Parliament = powerless 4th rate (not good enough to be an MP) politicians

A power grab by the Commission at the expense of the Council is very significant

It is not a power grab by the commission. It is a speech of little consequence that Eurosceptic headbangers are whipping up into something it isn't.

You are quite wrong about Germany in the Council too they have one vote in 28 (soon to be 27) but there is little point in discussing it because your mind is made up.

 

[scaramanga]

I think that there will certainly be closer European integration once we are out of the way. The fact remains that we had a veto on all of this and it posed no threat to us. The Eurosceptic case is built on a bogeyman that doesn't exist.

Does the veto work the same way as changes to the constitution that require referendums do?

What happens when the EU wants to pass something we have a veto over and they just rename it as something we don't have a veto over?

 

[milo]

Does the veto work the same way as changes to the constitution that require referendums do?

What happens when the EU wants to pass something we have a veto over and they just rename it as something we don't have a veto over?

We have an absolute veto over these areas:

• Common Foreign and Security Policy (with the exception of certain clearly defined cases which require qualified majority, e.g. Appointment of a special representative)
• Citizenship – the granting of new rights to EU citizens
• New EU membership
• Harmonisation of national legislation on indirect taxation
• EU finances (own resources, the multiannual financial framework)
• Certain provisions in the field of justice and home affairs (the European prosecutor, family law, operational police cooperation, etc.)
• Harmonisation of national legislation in the field of social security and social protection.

http://www.eu-facts.org.uk/arguments-by-topic/can-the-uk-veto-new-eu-laws/

In all other areas we need to get three other countries to support us.

https://fullfact.org/europe/british-influence-eu-council-ministers/

In reality, can anyone think of anything that the EU has imposed on us?

 

[scaramanga]

We have an absolute veto over these areas:

• Common Foreign and Security Policy (with the exception of certain clearly defined cases which require qualified majority, e.g. Appointment of a special representative)
• Citizenship – the granting of new rights to EU citizens
• New EU membership
• Harmonisation of national legislation on indirect taxation
• EU finances (own resources, the multiannual financial framework)
• Certain provisions in the field of justice and home affairs (the European prosecutor, family law, operational police cooperation, etc.)
• Harmonisation of national legislation in the field of social security and social protection.

http://www.eu-facts.org.uk/arguments-by-topic/can-the-uk-veto-new-eu-laws/

In all other areas we need to get three other countries to support us.

https://fullfact.org/europe/british-influence-eu-council-ministers/

In reality, can anyone think of anything that the EU has imposed on us?

The constitution changes Lisbon Treaty? Can't have a new constitution? We'll just call it a treaty. Voted out the treaty? We'll just keep asking until we get the answer we want.

It wasn't just us, there were plenty of countries that required a referendum to ratify constitution changes IIRC.

I understand what we have vetoes against, I just don't trust the EU to not force those things through by the back channels.

 

[Gutter Boy]

It is not a power grab by the commission. It is a speech of little consequence that Eurosceptic headbangers are whipping up into something it isn't.

You are quite wrong about Germany in the Council too they have one vote in 28 (soon to be 27) but there is little point in discussing it because your mind is made up.

When have power relations ever been determined by votes? Germany bankrolls the whole thing, so tends to call the shots

 

[SpurMeUp]

the EU will deliberately delay any future EU-UK free trade deal. They have already started this by refusing to hold talks regarding the future trade deal alongside the withdrawal process.

That was obvious beforehand. Everyone predicted it wouldn't be quick or easy to get an EU trade deal, bar some Leave campaigners lying through their teeth that we hold all the cards. The EU has never ever put in place a quick free trade deal. We've told the EU to do one, and you expect them to do us favour in return and rush through a trade deal? Furthermore they are entitled to protect their members and ensure all lose ends are sorted before they move onto putting in place access to Customs Union trade.

If we were in the EU and France was off, you'd expect the EU to protect us, or would you say "no sort France out", do all you can to help them, put them in front of remaining member countries?

Amazing how peoples voting bias or dedication to a belief in something, stops them seeing things rationally.