Politics, politics, politics

[r-u-s-x01]

Brexit is certainly a problem for the Conservative party. It splits their vote right down the middle.

In terms of austerity, does that actually show at all in most people's lives? I can genuinely say I've not noticed it, and whilst opponents will be able to find plenty of one-off cases to shout about, I don't know anyone who's noticed it.

That's an age group where people are progressing the most in their careers too. If they're doing it right, people of that age group should have seen significant payrises regardless of whether pay overall has increased.

If people aged 35-44 are not seeing significant increases in their pay then there's a major problem but it's not the economy.

Speak to nurses, teachers etc and they are certainly noticing it both at work and take home

 

[scaramanga]

Speak to nurses, teachers etc and they are certainly noticing it both at work and take home

It's not as if payrises in the private sector have been huge either - public sector workers can't expect to be taking home payrises the private sector aren't.

 

[the dza]

It's disgusting that this can happen in a rich country in 2017. A building going up like that is surely preventable if there is enough proper regulation and those regulations are properly enforced.

It is truly horrific.

 

[SpurMeUp]

How the fuk can architects, engineers, planning officers and our building regulations allow profit hungry contractors to coat buildings full of people in a flammable wrap? This cladding has been seen ablaze in China, Dubai and even in London, yet seemingly no one had any clue!?

How many renovated blocks need this shi1 striped off tomorrow? I know of a few that have had the same new look pasted onto the concrete exterior. If its the wrong the type of cladding, it is the most appalling death trap.

Thoughts and prays to those affected, who had no say or control. Makes you feel fortunate to be alive yourself.

 

[mephitis]

It's not as if payrises in the private sector have been huge either - public sector workers can't expect to be taking home payrises the private sector aren't.

No! But they'd really like to be paid at the level of private sector workers*.

* NB I speak as someone who has never worked in the public sector.

 

[scaramanga]

I would say yes. It doesn't show up if you are lucky enough to have private healthcare with no chronic conditions so you can mostly avoid the NHS.

Not lucky to have private healthcare, worked for it. Also pay huge amounts of tax on the benefit on top of making my contribution to the NHS.

I'm fortunate enough to not have any chronic conditions, but my wife is in and out of hospital fairly regularly and I've seen no difference at all. I've certainly not seen any difference at my GP.

You won't notice it if you send your kids to private schools rather than use the state system where they are struggling to carry out routine maintenance work and cannot recruit cleaners in some instances due to lack of money.

How are the academies doing? Certainly the area I have dealings with (friends who are governors and teachers), the council run schools are over budget just like they've always been, the academies are getting by.

Schools have always run over budget, they've always had fundraisers to make up the difference. The narrative (run by notoriously lefty teachers) is allowing them to blame austerity and ask more brazenly for money.

You won't notice it unless you are in the military and desperately short of supplies and man power.

I wouldn't go to breakfast for my country, let alone war, so I know little about the military.

One thing I do know is that they've been complaining about a lack of equipment and underfunding for as long as I've been watching/reading/listening to the news. The only thing that changes is your slant on the government they're complaining to.

You won't notice it unless you are low paid and having your in work benefits cut.

Do you have a quantifiable amount of benefit cut that's likely to happen? I've genuinely looked pretty hard for this and the worst I can find is a freeze (in line with most private sector pay). Even the marginally less swivel-eyed publications like the Guardian keep trying the figures in with a worst case scenario Brexit in order to come up with some huge scary number.

You won't notice it unless you travel to work on public transport and see above inflation rises every January. You won't notice it unless you are a public sector worker who have not seen their wages rise significantly for seven years, seen staffing levels cut to the bone and terms and conditions eroded.

The private sector has been the same too.

It's a recession, that's what happens. If the one eyed tax monster hadn't spent all our money then the government may have been able to soften the blow slightly, but everyone feels the pinch in a recession, that's why we have to save for them.

As we watch the terrible events unfold at the Grenfall tower, noises have already been made about the Council being strapped for cash so they did not test and maintain the dry risers.

Much like schools and the military, councils have been strapped for cash for as long as I've been alive.

There was once a really good solution to council overspending called the Community Charge. But then some trots called it a poll tax and decided to take a few days off work and smash brick up so it didn't happen.

Yes austerity is biting and wealthy people like yourself and George Osborne are out of touch with ordinary people.

I'm nothing like George Osborne, I work for a living.

I'm not sure how far from the norm you think I am, but I don't have an inheritance or an estate to live off. I earn an ok wage, but only because I've spent nearly two decades doing ridiculous hours and making sure I'm better than everyone else at what I do. I still have to work to pay the mortgage and to put food on the table.

So I don't choose my politics because I don't care about those less successful than me, I choose them because I believe government spending is the weight that drags us all down. For every penny the government spends, that's a penny from a business or an employer that could otherwise have spent it more efficiently and more usefully.

 

[scaramanga]

No! But they'd really like to be paid at the level of private sector workers*.

* NB I speak as someone who has never worked in the public sector.

You're kidding right? Do you know how much a teacher earns?

How many jobs outside of London will pay over £30k a year to a person that never takes on any responsibility over their base job?

Take a look at the top end too. I've done consultant work for councils in the past, it was some of the best paying work I ever got and I've worked for the tobacco industry too! Some execs in councils earn money that would make me blush.

Also, this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ave-higher-wages-private-sector-counterparts/

The trend may be going towards the private sector but it's not there yet.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

So you're not interested in setting the Irish or the Scots free, it's just a selfish wish to set the English free dressed up as a moral crusade for the put upon. That my friend is what's wrong with the world today a fake quest for social justice being used to manipulate the ignorant and the young into gaining power over the masses.
By stirring the snowflake outrage you hope to ride roughshod over the rest of us, well I'm onto mate.






I hope I've read the subtext of your post correctly and my answer is taken in the best it's intended.

That is exactly what I want, I want my own desires to win the day even if the majority to vote the other way. If I do not get my way, then I will make myself a Martyr who is kept down by the elite and the media who are against everything I stand for. Even if none of the aforementioned is backed up by actual facts, it makes no difference. Brexit and the after marks showed me that one must biitch and complain if your side losses an election.

I have no reason for wanting to set Scotland free other than they have a trend of voting a bit left wing and I am a bit right wing, and as is the general consensus and you even see it in this thread. People tend to vote or what outcomes that back up their own political views.

 

[scaramanga]

I don't think that it is a bold statement, the data we have on voting patterns in the 2015/2017 elections does not show a passage from left wing idealism to right wing pragmatism (which is the typical interpretation of it). In 2015, voting patterns are reasonably consistent in all age groups under 60. In 2017 there is significant growth in support for Labour in all age groups under 50.

I can't say that I have noticed the same amongst my friends who I have known since we were in our early twenties. I think that for many, formative experiences shape political opinion and that stays with people.

I think that one brexit-based election is a poor basis for making trend claims.

What we do know, is that young people overwhelmingly vote left. We also know that in the whole, they don't stop voting and that over time, the right vote hasn't dwindled. So the only thing we can take from that is that left voters become right voters in roughly equal number to the rate young ones start voting (recent election excepted and minus the increase in old people due to living longer).

 

[SteveAWOL]

Sounds like the risk from this sort of cladding causing fire to spread rapidly has long since been established but the findings of a report into the deaths of 6 residents at another London high rise back in 2009 were never acted upon.

BBC NEWS | England | London | Tower blocks 'potential disaster'

In July six people died during a fire at Lakanal House, a 12-storey block in Southwark now thought to have been unsafe. But the research suggests the problem of unsafe tower blocks could be widespread.

Under the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order 2005, councils are compelled to conduct fire risk assessments before and during major refurbishments.

Freedom of Information requests sent to 32 boroughs showed at least eight councils have been failing to do this. In many cases a fire risk assessment had not been carried out in the first place.

The responses from councils revealed there are 72 unchecked and potentially unsafe tower bocks in Greenwich, 63 in Westminster and 34 in Hammersmith and Fulham.

BBC London asked Arnold Tarling, a chartered surveyor with 22 years' experience in fire risk, to visit Brittany Point, a block in Lambeth which has never been fire assessed.

Mr Tarling, who called the block a "disaster waiting to happen", found a catalogue of fire hazards, including:

• Flammable expanding foam around windows which would give off a thick black smoke if set alight.
• A 13-year gap in recorded fire hose services.
• Gaps underneath fire-resistant panels, which would render them useless.
• Panels containing a polystyrene which could melt, give off smoke and add fuel to flames.

He said: "Those polystyrene panels are one of the causes of [the rapid spread of fire at] Lakanal House.

Government "Sat On" Tower Block Fire Report For Four Years - LBC

Six people died and more than 20 hurt after Lakanal House in Camberwell caught fire in 2009.

Ronnie King, the Honorary administrative secretary of the All-Party Parliamentary Group Fire Safety & Rescue Group, told LBC that recommendations from a report on that blaze have not been properly reviewed.

He told Nick Ferrari: "The All-Party Group were looking at the issue of fire suppression in all the tower blocks with similar designs to this. And we understand that there are around 4,000 tower blocks that don't have fire sprinklers fitted into them.

"That was a recommendation, which was down to each local council and landlords to determine the appropriateness of this. We were strongly recommending this as the fire at Lakanal House spread within four minutes to the flat above and went on to kill six people regrettably.

...Sucessive ministers since 2013 have said they are still looking at it."

 

[mephitis]

You're kidding right? Do you know how much a teacher earns?

How many jobs outside of London will pay over £30k a year to a person that never takes on any responsibility over their base job?

Take a look at the top end too. I've done consultant work for councils in the past, it was some of the best paying work I ever got and I've worked for the tobacco industry too! Some execs in councils earn money that would make me blush.

Also, this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ave-higher-wages-private-sector-counterparts/

The trend may be going towards the private sector but it's not there yet.

1. Do you know anybody that works in the public sector?
2. You've done some consultancy work for councils. So you've never worked in the public sector then?
3. The days of teachers being paid a relatively good wage for minimal hours and being able to fvck off to the Dordogne for 6 weeks every summer are long gone. Also most of them are working for academies now and are getting their Ar5e5 screwed to the floor or replaced by newly qualified teachers on abot £24k. Yes I do know what teachers earn. I'm in financial services and that's part of my remit.
4. Council execs aren't atypical of your average public sector worker.
5. The Daily Telegraph is not exactly going to give a dispassionate view of the public sector is it?
6. If you think the public sector pays well, have a look at your transferable skills or a job that is a direct equivalent of yours and see what you'll get paid in the public sector. I don't think you'll be jumping ship anytime soon.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I think that one brexit-based election is a poor basis for making trend claims.

What we do know, is that young people overwhelmingly vote left. We also know that in the whole, they don't stop voting and that over time, the right vote hasn't dwindled. So the only thing we can take from that is that left voters become right voters in roughly equal number to the rate young ones start voting (recent election excepted and minus the increase in old people due to living longer).

When people are young they vote for free education, when they are old they are old they vote for free money(pension)

 

[scaramanga]

1. Do you know anybody that works in the public sector?
2. You've done some consultancy work for councils. So you've never worked in the public sector then?
3. The days of teachers being paid a relatively good wage for minimal hours and being able to fvck off to the Dordogne for 6 weeks every summer are long gone. Also most of them are working for academies now and are getting their Ar5e5 screwed to the floor or replaced by newly qualified teachers on abot £24k. Yes I do know what teachers earn. I'm in financial services and that's part of my remit.
4. Council execs aren't atypical of your average public sector worker.
5. The Daily Telegraph is not exactly going to give a dispassionate view of the public sector is it?
6. If you think the public sector pays well, have a look at your transferable skills or a job that is a direct equivalent of yours and see what you'll get paid in the public sector. I don't think you'll be jumping ship anytime soon.

1) Yes, plenty. My wife and most of her friends are state school teachers. One or two are incredibly hardworking and underpaid for what they do. Some wouldn't last a month in the private sector and the rest are very well paid based on what I know of their intelligence.

2) Of course not, I could never work in such a bureaucratic environment. It does go to show there's money to spend though - if they wanted to spend that on staff rather than a world class database architecture that's well outside the scope of their requirements then they could.

3) There is still no way for a school to compel a teacher to take on extra duties. That means a teacher can be just good enough for a few years and the payscale will take them to around £32-33k without lifting an extra finger.

4) I'm comparing like for like. My pay is far less than that of a council exec in a similar position.

5) No, but the IFS is

6) A quick search just turned up a BBC article from about 7 years ago telling me there's a chief exec in a council earning £300k and that plenty more are on over £200k. I don't really want to get into the details of my salary but suffice it to say, that's significantly more than I earn.

 

[awesome dawson]

Completely agree that this is an horrific and ultimately avoidable accident. There'll be a Royal Inquiry, concluding with a damming report requiring all buildings with this material as their cladding are to be removed at the cost of the developer, many of whom will claim bankruptcy or be under the ownership of Housing Associations and Councils who claim they can't afford it without Government funding.

Whoever thought a foam layer between two decorative cheaparse panels was a good idea, needs locking up.

One thought that crossed my mind was surely any terrorist wishing to make a statement (or martyr himself into the arms of 100 virgins) would simply block a fire escape and empty a few gallons of fuel in the lobby, instead of charging a policeman who is carrying an automatic weapon with a kitchen knife.

 

[milo]

I think that one brexit-based election is a poor basis for making trend claims.

What we do know, is that young people overwhelmingly vote left. We also know that in the whole, they don't stop voting and that over time, the right vote hasn't dwindled. So the only thing we can take from that is that left voters become right voters in roughly equal number to the rate young ones start voting (recent election excepted and minus the increase in old people due to living longer).

I think that you might've misread my post or more likely, I was being unclear. I wasn't making trend claims. I was making a comparison between 2015 and 2017. I have no idea whether what we have seen in this election is a one off or will be seen again.

In 2015 the voting across the age ranges is reasonably flat. There is no evidence of a drift rightwards as you age. In 2017 we have seen a massive move towards Labour in the working age population.

 

[milo]

When people are young they vote for free education, when they are old they are old they vote for free money(pension)

I wonder how much of the difference is down to events rather than people changing their beliefs as they get older.

The older age groups will remember the winter of discontent and the political instability through the seventies. Many will have moved to the Conservatives as a result of this and Thatcher. I wonder how many of them stayed there.

 

[scaramanga]

I wonder how much of the difference is down to events rather than people changing their beliefs as they get older.

The older age groups will remember the winter of discontent and the political instability through the seventies. Many will have moved to the Conservatives as a result of this and Thatcher. I wonder how many of them stayed there.

I did read an article the other day claiming that every generation has to experience the horrors of socialism first hand before they learn not to vote that way.

 

[milo]

I did read an article the other day claiming that every generation has to experience the horrors of socialism first hand before they learn not to vote that way.

And the Tories are making a bloody good job of proving that the converse is also true.

 

[milo]

I think that the other thing worth considering is changing social attitudes. Part of Cameron and Osborne's plan to detoxify the Conservatives was for them to accept modern social attitudes. I think that this was one of the reasons why the Conservatives lost some voters to UKIP but it did help them attract younger/metropolitan voters.

May has done an about turn on that. She's recaptured a lot of UKIP votes but in the process lost the votes of the young, educated and the major cities. A deal with the DUP is only going to make this worse.

I wonder which would have been the better long term strategy.

 

[milo]

Just watching Newsnight now about this fire -- a woman on there the head of a group who was protesting against the refurbishment work done on that tower block. Nobody listened to them. Making me angry watching it.

I felt the same. Well worth watching

https://twitter.com/x/status/875155162666545157