Politics, politics, politics

[glasgowspur]

I felt the same. Well worth watching

https://twitter.com/x/status/875155162666545157

She had me until the Osborne and Cameron bit. It doesn't matter how cash strapped a council is first priority is safety, and somebody at the council must have signed this off as safe. That's not the PM or chancellors job that's the council.
Just coming across as trying to make political gain on the back of this tragedy.

 

[StephenH]

She had me until the Osborne and Cameron bit. It doesn't matter how cash strapped a council is first priority is safety, and somebody at the council must have signed this off as safe. That's not the PM or chancellors job that's the council.
Just coming across as trying to make political gain on the back of this tragedy.

I think the lady was using the two "gentlemen" as an example at unique financial demographic of this area which is very diverse, to be polite. With 12 + dead they have a very valid point.
Sprinkler systems must be installed in all tower blocks.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Tower blocks in general aren't safe. Everyone has known that since the big Glasgow incident in the late 60s. That's why they weren't built from them on/were gradually being demolished (up until about 10 years ago).

I've got a friend who lives in one and all the residents keep long ropes in their flats, because they know that's their only hope.

The politic issue is the unbalanced economy. People shouldn't have to be living in such slums in the south east, when there's rows of good empty housing stock in places like Lancashire and the North East.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

It's not as if payrises in the private sector have been huge either - public sector workers can't expect to be taking home payrises the private sector aren't.

Regardless (don't see many having cuts) they are certainly feeling austerity both at work etc.

 

[Robspur12]

She had me until the Osborne and Cameron bit. It doesn't matter how cash strapped a council is first priority is safety, and somebody at the council must have signed this off as safe. That's not the PM or chancellors job that's the council.
Just coming across as trying to make political gain on the back of this tragedy.

Sadly this is not the case. The Council's first priority is to ensure that the vulnerable are looked after. This is why the social care bills are so high and it sucks money from other areas.

 

[scaramanga]

She had me until the Osborne and Cameron bit. It doesn't matter how cash strapped a council is first priority is safety, and somebody at the council must have signed this off as safe. That's not the PM or chancellors job that's the council.
Just coming across as trying to make political gain on the back of this tragedy.

Sadly this is not the case. The Council's first priority is to ensure that the vulnerable are looked after. This is why the social care bills are so high and it sucks money from other areas.

The BBC article I read (not claiming veracity but it's the only source I have) said that the council had performed a fire safety audit and that the building was of average risk (acceptable).

If so, @glasgowspur is absolutely right - the blame lies with the person making that call, not the government.

 

[glasgowspur]

I think the lady was using the two "gentlemen" as an example at unique financial demographic of this area which is very diverse, to be polite. With 12 + dead they have a very valid point.
Sprinklesr systems must be installed in all tower blocks.

Not being a Londoner or familiar with the make up of each area in london I'm not aware of such issues, as i suspect many aren't.

 

[scaramanga]

And the Tories are making a bloody good job of proving that the converse is also true.

I think that the other thing worth considering is changing social attitudes. Part of Cameron and Osborne's plan to detoxify the Conservatives was for them to accept modern social attitudes. I think that this was one of the reasons why the Conservatives lost some voters to UKIP but it did help them attract younger/metropolitan voters.

May has done an about turn on that. She's recaptured a lot of UKIP votes but in the process lost the votes of the young, educated and the major cities. A deal with the DUP is only going to make this worse.

I wonder which would have been the better long term strategy.

I'm not going to pretend there's much good about the Conservatives as a party - they're a shambles and May's the worst of it.

They have been pretty good for the economy though. Despite the left's claims about their tax cuts reducing funding for everyone else, corporation tax receipts are at a record high. Since the start of these austerity measures, seven private sector jobs have been created for each public one lost. We have record employment and are one of the more successful countries at navigating our way through a global crisis.

Had that been the focus of the Conservative campaign (with a decent, honest leader in charge) I think we'd have seen a very different result.

 

[scaramanga]

Regardless (don't see many having cuts) they are certainly feeling austerity both at work etc.

It's a recession, brick happens. If we'd done the sensible thing during the boom years then it might have been different, laying the blame for that at the door of the Conservatives is just wrong.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

In terms of austerity, does that actually show at all in most people's lives? I can genuinely say I've not noticed it, and whilst opponents will be able to find plenty of one-off cases to shout about, I don't know anyone who's noticed it.

I was still addressing

 

[SpurMeUp]

How have quick profits on cheap aluminium cladding materials, with no regard to fire safety, been allowed?

Around the world it's been shown to be deadly. Unbelievable.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...e-high-rise-blaze-also-used-in-grenfell-tower


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Robspur12]

The BBC article I read (not claiming veracity but it's the only source I have) said that the council had performed a fire safety audit and that the building was of average risk (acceptable).

If so, @glasgowspur is absolutely right - the blame lies with the person making that call, not the government.

I am not blaming the government it's far too early for that. But there is an issue about prioritisation of shrinking LA funds. I suspect also that we are going to find out that legislation such as building regulations are totally inadequate so it may not be entirely the auditors fault either.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I felt the same. Well worth watching

https://twitter.com/x/status/875155162666545157

You see, this is the great Tory con. It will take tragedies such as this for the people to wake up. Dodgy cladding, a defunded council that cannot meet it's remit regarding building inspections, a powerless tenancy, corps making huge profits and at what cost?

 

[spitshine]

Tower blocks in general aren't safe. Everyone has known that since the big Glasgow incident in the late 60s. That's why they weren't built from them on/were gradually being demolished (up until about 10 years ago).

I've got a friend who lives in one and all the residents keep long ropes in their flats, because they know that's their only hope.

The politic issue is the unbalanced economy. People shouldn't have to be living in such slums in the south east, when there's rows of good empty housing stock in places like Lancashire and the North East.

Unfortunately it's all London centric. Everyone wants to live here for jobs, accessibility etc. That won't change unless the Northern Powerhouse, which was another good policy by Cameron, is fully operational.

For all those who slate David Cameron, he would have wiped the floor with the 2017 election contenders. A decent statesman and is infinitely more affable than the current lot.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I think that the other thing worth considering is changing social attitudes. Part of Cameron and Osborne's plan to detoxify the Conservatives was for them to accept modern social attitudes. I think that this was one of the reasons why the Conservatives lost some voters to UKIP but it did help them attract younger/metropolitan voters.

May has done an about turn on that. She's recaptured a lot of UKIP votes but in the process lost the votes of the young, educated and the major cities. A deal with the DUP is only going to make this worse.

I wonder which would have been the better long term strategy.

Part of the reason I would not vote for her, what the fcuk was she thinking with fox hunting... she took the tories back 20 years.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

How have quick profits on cheap aluminium cladding materials, with no regard to fire safety, been allowed?

Around the world it's been shown to be deadly. Unbelievable.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...e-high-rise-blaze-also-used-in-grenfell-tower


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

How? The free market silly. Get in the dodgiest material, at the cheapest price and make a big fat profit. It's what makes the world go around. Public safety? What's that and anyway, who care?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Unfortunately it's all London centric. Everyone wants to live here for jobs, accessibility etc. That won't change unless the Northern Powerhouse, which was another good policy by Cameron, is fully operational.

For all those who slate David Cameron, he would have wiped the floor with the 2017 election contenders. A decent statesman and is infinitely more affable than the current lot.

All true. Although I think people often have to, rather than want to, live there.

The Manchester-Sheffield-Leeds triangle is doing well though; less so the old mining or ship building towns beyond.

Personally (as an ex-pat from the south east) I now have a house on the edge of a national park, 3 miles from a major city centre, half the price and double the size of what it would be near London, and am on the same pay as my London equivalents. I think more Londoners could be less insular and see the superior quality of life that exists an hour or two north. This is a bit too true for some: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...-slightly-ahead-on-food-trends-20170109119840

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I'm surprised at that - I wonder if it's something to do with the reduced level of housing ownership.

Best thing would be to release all that council housing into right to buy schemes - should fix the problem.

I'd be surprised if the swing was down to house ownership as we're are only talking 2015 and 2017.

House ownership/affordability issues have been a problem for a while longer than that.

Perhaps social media influence stretches up to the high 40's age bracket and 'Jezza's' campaign gained some traction there as well as the millenium generation?

Edit: Or it could be that May was so damn bad she had the all and sundry shaking their head

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

If everyone is relying on everyone else for products then nobody can hold anyone to ransom. Take Saudi Arabia for example - I think the largest Middle East exporter but I'm happy to be corrected if not.

They, obviously, rely on digging up and selling oil to run their economy. Where do they get the industrial valves, pumps, taps, pipes, etc? They don't make them at home. What about the computers that run it all or even tangential things like the AC units that allow all their foreign experts work in that ridiculous heat? The medical equipment that keeps those who own the oil alive, or even the expertise?

If they shut the world off, then the world shuts them off. It's a global market now, you shouldn't worry about UK food/power independence than you should Rotherham's food/energy independence.

The following article/paper (I'm sure you've read it before) was written nearly 60 years ago. Have a look and see how globalised production was then - it's been growing ever since and will only go one way.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/rdPncl1.html

In reality this is short term thinking. And that's not including the geopolitical high wire that we have to tread with trading 'partners' that include the middle east and Russia.

The black stuff will run out. So lets move on to the truly infinite resources of the sun,wind,tides,hydro. Looking into my back garden, two of them are pumping away right now and they're not running out anytime soon. Why have all the infrastructure when you're own house is its own little power station.

Technology will take us there and i hope none of that development is on a slow go just because oil is still the daddy in the room.

Better battery tech, solar roof tiles, heat pumps etc etc combined with devices power consumption becoming increasingly efficient ......it shouldn't be hard to get everyones house, at best, to neutral status.

And in that sense it has nothing to do with security, economics etc......its just the logical way to proceed.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

You see, this is the great Tory con. It will take tragedies such as this for the people to wake up. Dodgy cladding, a defunded council that cannot meet it's remit regarding building inspections, a powerless tenancy, corps making huge profits and at what cost?

During the planning process, all sample of materials to be used have to be submitted for approval. Either the cladding submitted was (wrongly) on the ok list or the contractor (sneakily) used a different type because it was cheaper, although the building inspector should have picked this up. It is likely that the product used shouldn't of been on the list (and there is plenty of evidence to say it shouldn't of been) and a mineral based cladding should have been.

So effectively the contractor, council, cut-backs are likely not to blame......it's learning eff all from previous incidents, and not applying that knowledge or safety in the future that could well be to blame here.