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Politics, politics, politics
- Thread starter markysimmo
- Start date
Parklaner81
Steve Hodge
I'd say they should. They'd win over a substantial block of the electorate on the final point alone, and I imagine it would give them enough capital to more than override any negative effects.
That said, they've already ruled it out, and the offer wouldn't be made in the first place. But hypothetically I'd say yes, they should go for it on those terms.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
This.
I don't think The Tories would risk going into a coalition with the Lib Dems -- for one thing, there are probably more wing-nut hard-right "brexit at all costs" MPs in the Tory party than there are Lib Dems in Parliament (only 12 Lib Dems). They'd bring it all down if a 2nd referendum was to be offered.
Then of course, they risk losing all their Kipper voters back to Ukip after that coalition was torpedoed by the Tory right.
They really don't have many options at all and I think this DUP link could prove very toxic.
Then of course, they risk losing all their Kipper voters back to Ukip after that coalition was torpedoed by the Tory right.
They really don't have many options at all and I think this DUP link could prove very toxic.
Votes are not equal using fptp many are worthless.
Thought you liked the US structure with an elected second chamber?
I do not expect them to fix everything but don't insist on "fixing" the bits that benefit you but no others, and if you do be sure that everyone knows its flimflam
I think so, yes.
milo
Jack L. Jones
I think that an argument can be made either way but the reason for the changes was only self interest
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
Basically by giving remainers what they want...Is another step backwards. Then the UKippers 're-enter the room... Then we have the slanging match post a second referendum....all the time being overseen by who? Farron/May/another dingdong?
We need the political Poch to come along.
We're in an inertia of doo doo.
Parklaner81
Steve Hodge
I completely agree with you. I wasn't endorsing the suggestion, I was answering hypothetically from the point of view of the Lib Dems.
They are remainers. It's a key issue for them. Being able to say 'we got you a second referendum on brexit' would be massive. For them. Wouldn't do the country any favours in my opinion, but it would win them an awful lot of capital with, as I said, a substantial chunk of the electorate.
milo
Jack L. Jones
So the DUP's inherent bigotry, homophobia, climate change and evolution denial should disbar them from mainstream politics, full stop. But.
It's important not to let the DUP's general grossness overshadow just what a colossally irresponsible move this is from TM. It's INSANE.
I sound like a broken record but please please please can we talk about how powersharing has collapsed in Northern Ireland?
This is a list of the current members in the Northern Irish Executive in Stormont.
It's been like this for three months. This crisis dates back to the Cash for Ash scandal involving current head of the DUP Arlene Foster.
It's a frankly unbelievable story of sleaze at the top of NI politics. It would be difficult for most governments to deal with.
Add in the inherent sectarian tension in Northern Irish politics, plus heightened fears over a hard border post-Brexit, and it's paralysing.
Sinn Fein pulled out of the executive in protest at Arlene Foster, triggering elections which eventually gave SF an increased vote share
They had six weeks after that point to form a government. SF demanded Foster quit as head of DUP, she refused. Again. Things got more tense.
The deadline for forming government passed. At that point either ANOTHER election had to be called, or you revert to Direct Rule.
At this point Westminster woke up. The idea of Northern Ireland slipping back to Direct Rule months before Brexit negotiations = NOT GOOD.
So at the end of March James Brokenshire went over to NI to generally just ask people to get along/be totally useless. It didn't work.
He said there was no appetite for another election (true) and no appetite for Direct Rule (also true). So they just extended the deadline.
Keep in mind, this is end of March. We've just triggered Article 50 and we're currently having a totally pointless argument about Gibraltar.
Should we have been having a discussion about the steady erosion of the peace process in Northern Ireland instead? YEAH MAYBE.
The deadline is shunted on further. Talks between SF & DUP are going nowhere. But at least the UK government is aware of the problem now.
Things are tense, complicated and messy. You know what the situation doesn't need? A snap general election.
Suddenly Northern Ireland is facing the prospect of ANOTHER election, for Westminster this time, while dealing with a constitutional crisis.
So the deadline gets shunted until after the election. The parties are now negotiating and campaigning at the same time. Great stuff.
And so to yesterday. SF get 8, DUP 10. The more moderate SDLP, UUP and Alliance fall away. Northern Ireland is more polarised than ever.
Before today, TM's government has been criminally negligent of Northern Ireland. Think about how little you've heard about NI this election.
It was only ever brought up in relation to Corbyn and the IRA. There was NO discussion of Stormont impasse, or even the border post-Brexit.
You'd think we'd have learnt our lesson after the EU referendum and actually thought about the consequences of a Hard Brexit in NI. But no.
So here we are, June 9th, 10 days before Brexit negotiations, with no Stormont government and mass confusion over the NI Brexit border.
We have three months of inaction. We have the DUP and SF in a stalemate. The deadline is approaching again. Direct rule looms.
These problems will only be solved by careful, strategic leadership from Westminster, working with both parties to deescalate the situation.
What Theresa May has done today has destroyed any hope of that. At one of the most dangerous times in its recent history, May has done this.
Any pretense that the UK government could be neutral in this is gone. Their entire existence is now dependent on the DUP.
Direct rule is not an option because the DUP has an unrealistic amount of sway over Westminster. It throws the balance of power totally off.
Arlene Foster, who should have resigned months ago for her rank corruption, now holds more power over the UK government than...anyone?
The next deadline, by the way, is June 29th. But now the DUP is in bed with the UK government, will James Brokenshire have any authority?
Has anyone in gov thought about what happens when THAT expires? Why should Sinn Fein treat the UK gov as a neutral arbiter after that?
Power-sharing relies on a neutral UK government. If the government is beholden to one side in power-sharing, it is fatally undermined.
It's hard to see what happens in N Ireland without power-sharing or without direct rule. Either it will float on, pushing that deadline...
...or the whole thing is irrevocably damaged and the system implodes. For what, a two seat majority?
I may be wrong - there may be some incredible fudge that Tories/DUP/SF have planned. Maybe the DUP are hoping the SF will just accept it.
I pray TM has a plan beyond "keep the DUP onside, stay in power". If she doesn't, she's thrown Northern Ireland into chaos for nothing.
FYI: I am NOT an expert on this. I have probably made countless errors and generalisations & my Northern Irish friends are probably furious
If you want someone seriously in the know can I recommend @SiobhanFenton who has been doing brilliant work on Northern Ireland constantly
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
Let's just pile up the 'sh!t to deal' with in-tray.So the DUP's inherent bigotry, homophobia, climate change and evolution denial should disbar them from mainstream politics, full stop. But.
It's important not to let the DUP's general grossness overshadow just what a colossally irresponsible move this is from TM. It's INSANE.
I sound like a broken record but please please please can we talk about how powersharing has collapsed in Northern Ireland?
This is a list of the current members in the Northern Irish Executive in Stormont.
It's been like this for three months. This crisis dates back to the Cash for Ash scandal involving current head of the DUP Arlene Foster.
It's a frankly unbelievable story of sleaze at the top of NI politics. It would be difficult for most governments to deal with.
Add in the inherent sectarian tension in Northern Irish politics, plus heightened fears over a hard border post-Brexit, and it's paralysing.
Sinn Fein pulled out of the executive in protest at Arlene Foster, triggering elections which eventually gave SF an increased vote share
They had six weeks after that point to form a government. SF demanded Foster quit as head of DUP, she refused. Again. Things got more tense.
The deadline for forming government passed. At that point either ANOTHER election had to be called, or you revert to Direct Rule.
At this point Westminster woke up. The idea of Northern Ireland slipping back to Direct Rule months before Brexit negotiations = NOT GOOD.
So at the end of March James Brokenshire went over to NI to generally just ask people to get along/be totally useless. It didn't work.
He said there was no appetite for another election (true) and no appetite for Direct Rule (also true). So they just extended the deadline.
Keep in mind, this is end of March. We've just triggered Article 50 and we're currently having a totally pointless argument about Gibraltar.
Should we have been having a discussion about the steady erosion of the peace process in Northern Ireland instead? YEAH MAYBE.
The deadline is shunted on further. Talks between SF & DUP are going nowhere. But at least the UK government is aware of the problem now.
Things are tense, complicated and messy. You know what the situation doesn't need? A snap general election.
Suddenly Northern Ireland is facing the prospect of ANOTHER election, for Westminster this time, while dealing with a constitutional crisis.
So the deadline gets shunted until after the election. The parties are now negotiating and campaigning at the same time. Great stuff.
And so to yesterday. SF get 8, DUP 10. The more moderate SDLP, UUP and Alliance fall away. Northern Ireland is more polarised than ever.
Before today, TM's government has been criminally negligent of Northern Ireland. Think about how little you've heard about NI this election.
It was only ever brought up in relation to Corbyn and the IRA. There was NO discussion of Stormont impasse, or even the border post-Brexit.
You'd think we'd have learnt our lesson after the EU referendum and actually thought about the consequences of a Hard Brexit in NI. But no.
So here we are, June 9th, 10 days before Brexit negotiations, with no Stormont government and mass confusion over the NI Brexit border.
We have three months of inaction. We have the DUP and SF in a stalemate. The deadline is approaching again. Direct rule looms.
These problems will only be solved by careful, strategic leadership from Westminster, working with both parties to deescalate the situation.
What Theresa May has done today has destroyed any hope of that. At one of the most dangerous times in its recent history, May has done this.
Any pretense that the UK government could be neutral in this is gone. Their entire existence is now dependent on the DUP.
Direct rule is not an option because the DUP has an unrealistic amount of sway over Westminster. It throws the balance of power totally off.
Arlene Foster, who should have resigned months ago for her rank corruption, now holds more power over the UK government than...anyone?
The next deadline, by the way, is June 29th. But now the DUP is in bed with the UK government, will James Brokenshire have any authority?
Has anyone in gov thought about what happens when THAT expires? Why should Sinn Fein treat the UK gov as a neutral arbiter after that?
Power-sharing relies on a neutral UK government. If the government is beholden to one side in power-sharing, it is fatally undermined.
It's hard to see what happens in N Ireland without power-sharing or without direct rule. Either it will float on, pushing that deadline...
...or the whole thing is irrevocably damaged and the system implodes. For what, a two seat majority?
I may be wrong - there may be some incredible fudge that Tories/DUP/SF have planned. Maybe the DUP are hoping the SF will just accept it.
I pray TM has a plan beyond "keep the DUP onside, stay in power". If she doesn't, she's thrown Northern Ireland into chaos for nothing.
FYI: I am NOT an expert on this. I have probably made countless errors and generalisations & my Northern Irish friends are probably furious
If you want someone seriously in the know can I recommend @SiobhanFenton who has been doing brilliant work on Northern Ireland constantly
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Nice sentiments, but I'm fed up of Tory MPs who talk like they care about these things and then go along with the party regardless of their apparent conscience.
milo
Jack L. Jones
Speaking out is a start. We are only two days after the election and parliament does not return for a week yet.
It's a start, but it's normally where it ends with the 'moderate' Tories. They speak out against certain cuts for example, then vote them through with their party anyway. If she means it, then get together with a dozen like minded Tory MPs and pull the plug on the agreement. It's not like she has no leverage here, no good writing on twitter like Joe Mug and then doing nothing -- that's good enough for the rest of us with no actual power, but not for an MP in her position. Will she do something along those lines? I won't hold my breath.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
It's a pretty damning reflection on Northern Ireland that the only two parties now are the DUP and Sinn Fein. Even though they are still sectarian, the UUP and SDLP were much more palatable. What on earth has happened to the middle class in that country?
In terms of the Tory deal though, does anyone think Corbyn and McDonnell wouldn't bring Sinn Fein into their coalition if they had the numbers and SF didn't have their absenteeism policy?
In terms of the Tory deal though, does anyone think Corbyn and McDonnell wouldn't bring Sinn Fein into their coalition if they had the numbers and SF didn't have their absenteeism policy?
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Re Stormont, would a simple solution not be just to make a cross-bench lord NI secretary or something like that?
But they can't and they haven't. May HAS done a deal with the DUP, despite being against "coalitions of chaos" and people who have chin-wags with terrorists. Very flexible principles to get a couple of extra seats it seems.
How would that solve anything?