Politics, politics, politics

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

The point is that the problems with public services are not caused by immigrants. We have an ageing population and funding for public services has been slashed over the last six years.

Knew it would be my fault

 

[glorygloryeze]

We have a points based system for immigration outside the EU now and non-EU immigration is higher than from within. We could cut immigration now by tightening up these controls. It would be detrimental to our economy but it would be easy enough to do.

Perhaps the points-based system has led to the immigration from outside the EU being of the 'more required/needed' variety hence the increase?
Surely, the point that most Brexiters say is that they want to be able to include immigration from within the EU under the points-based system and hence more under the UK Government control?

I think that the real issue here is that successive governments have failed to talk about the benefits to the UK economy of immigration. Instead they have played up to peoples' fears, courted the right wing press by talking tough but then have carried out a polar opposite policy in practice.

I don't think anybody is saying immigration is bad in or of itself,just that it should be within a Sovereign nation's control to set levels as they wish to and at anytime depending on the priority and need at that time.
Can i ask you, in your opinion, why do you think successive Governments have failed to talk about the benefits to the UK Economy of immigration and have instead courted the right wing press on it?

 

[milo]

Rubbish mate, I agree we have a ageing population but if you REALLY believe that the main cause of the problem is not down to too many people then there is no point in carrying this on. As I say if you have no problem where you live maybe those that do should move there.

We use the health service far more towards the end of our life. Pressure on the health service is almost entirely from an ageing population and cuts. You might not want to believe it but it is true.

In 2013-14, recent EU migrants paid £2.5 bn more in tax than they claimed in benefits or used in public services. If they were the cause of problems with public services then they are already paying more than enough to cover this.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...tionals_net_contribution_2013-2014.pdf#page=6

 

[milo]

Knew it would be my fault

 

[parklane1]

We use the health service far more towards the end of our life. Pressure on the health service is almost entirely from an ageing population and cuts. You might not want to believe it but it is true.

In 2013-14, recent EU migrants paid £2.5 bn more in tax than they claimed in benefits or used in public services. If they were the cause of problems with public services then they are already paying more than enough to cover this.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...tionals_net_contribution_2013-2014.pdf#page=6

We will have to agree to disagree mate. People have to vote to their conscience which is what I will do.

 

[milo]

Can i ask you, in your opinion, why do you think successive Governments have failed to talk about the benefits to the UK Economy of immigration and have instead courted the right wing press on it?

Because they are scared of the influence of the right wing press and press barons.

I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/ar...est-reason-to-stay-in-the-eu-yet--WyMaFTE890x

 

[milo]

We will have to agree to disagree mate. People have to vote to their conscience which is what I will do.

It's a shame that you are not interested in evidence that might contradict your views. There are stacks of evidence of the impact of the ageing population on public services and it is indisputable that EU immigrants are net tax contributors.

 

[milo]

Perhaps the points-based system has led to the immigration from outside the EU being of the 'more required/needed' variety hence the increase?

We need both skilled and unskilled immigrants. Agriculture in this country would collapse without seasonal immigrant labour and a points based immigration system would not be well placed to deal with this.

Imposing immigration controls on EU states would mean that we would see reciprocal controls on us living on the continent. That would be a massive backwards step and would impact over a million UK citizens and countless more in the future.

 

[Modric THFC]

We need both skilled and unskilled immigrants. Agriculture in this country would collapse without seasonal immigrant labour and a points based immigration system would not be well placed to deal with this.

Imposing immigration controls on EU states would mean that we would see reciprocal controls on us living on the continent. That would be a massive backwards step and would impact over a million UK citizens and countless more in the future.

Oh no UK citizens might have to fill out some forms and make applications.
There's 1.2m people in Australia that were born in the UK. How did they get there without EU open borders?

 

[parklane1]

It's a shame that you are not interested in evidence that might contradict your views. There are stacks of evidence of the impact of the ageing population on public services and it is indisputable that EU immigrants are net tax contributors.

I have already said once that the ageing population is adding to the problems in the health system ( it does not effect the schools though so what is the problem there). As I say vote to your conscience mate if you really believe we do not have a problem with to many people then open your eyes.

I am out of this as there is no point in carrying it on. As I said earlier lets agree to disagree.

 

[parklane1]

We need both skilled and unskilled immigrants. Agriculture in this country would collapse without seasonal immigrant labour and a points based immigration system would not be well placed to deal with this.

Imposing immigration controls on EU states would mean that we would see reciprocal controls on us living on the continent. That would be a massive backwards step and would impact over a million UK citizens and countless more in the future.

Problem solved send the lazy bastards who live off the state/ dole money there are plenty who do that. But that does not suit the agenda that Cameron and his cronies keep making.

 

[glorygloryeze]

It's a shame that you are not interested in evidence that might contradict your views. There are stacks of evidence of the impact of the ageing population on public services and it is indisputable that EU immigrants are net tax contributors.

On the whole EU migrants are indeed probably net tax contributors.
However, tax collected by Government is redistributed across the country for Public Services, such as hospitals, schools etc.
Do areas that have attracted EU Migrants(e.g. large conurbations like London, small towns that have many EU Migrants working in primary industries such as farming etc) get more amounts spent of their local Public Services because those EU Migrants who have moved there are net contributors?
For example, if school waiting lists are long in that area because said migrants have added to the local schoolchild population does that automatically lead to extra funding for more schools,larger classes etc? If it does, is this extra funding calculated in line with the tax intake from those living in the local area who are in employment?

Also, this 'net contribution' figure: how possible is it that there may be some EU Migrants working in very highly-paid professions who contribute disproportionately to the tax contribution compared to most others (who may in fact be net consumers of tax spend if you get what i mean).
Basically, what if there are 100 EU Migrants: 15 working in investment banking (very highly paid), 30 in public sector (middle level to lower paid), 40 in low paid/seasonal work (that means they are entitled to some low-pay in work benefit top-ups after some years) and 15 who are mostly unemployed, but the payand tax returns from the first 15 i mentioned vastly dwarf the pay (and benefits claimed) of the rest?

 

[glorygloryeze]

We need both skilled and unskilled immigrants. Agriculture in this country would collapse without seasonal immigrant labour and a points based immigration system would not be well placed to deal with this.

Surely the point of a point-based system would be to be able to cater to both shortages? Does Australia's impact their agriculture industry?

Imposing immigration controls on EU states would mean that we would see reciprocal controls on us living on the continent. That would be a massive backwards step and would impact over a million UK citizens and countless more in the future.

If UK citizens want to live on the continent,i'm sure they will be happy to deal with any 'reciprocal controls' as and when they apply to do so.

Just like there are controls to emigrating the the USA, Australia etc which also have to be dealt with. If they want to go to other countries to live, they'll have to get through those controls - as they have done for decades beforehand and will do so for decades in the future..

 

[monkeybarry]

Surely the point of a point-based system would be to be able to cater to both shortages? Does Australia's impact their agriculture industry?



If UK citizens want to live on the continent,i'm sure they will be happy to deal with any 'reciprocal controls' as and when they apply to do so.

Just like there are controls to emigrating the the USA, Australia etc which also have to be dealt with. If they want to go to other countries to live, they'll have to get through those controls - as they have done for decades beforehand and will do so for decades in the future..

Aka become an artist, marry an American or stop being British and try your luck in visa lottery.
I love when people who clearly know fudge all about visa processes reference them.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Aka become an artist, marry an American or stop being British and try your luck in visa lottery.
I love when people who clearly know fudge all about visa processes reference them.

Visa process, points based immigration etc etc, The United States of America has it's own set of rules for people who wish to migrate into it to live and work does it not?

 

[monkeybarry]

Visa process, points based immigration etc etc, The United States of America has it's own set of rules for people who wish to migrate into it to live and work does it not?

Not for Brits, no.

 

[tynesidespur]

Well this has made my mind up...

 

[Grays_1890]

Not for Brits, no.

Thats generally because the vast majority of Brits goign abroad to work do so with some kind of financial security not for the lure of milk and honey

 

[glorygloryeze]

Not for Brits, no.

My point is that Brits if they want to emigrate to another country to live and work they will have to meet said country's rules to be granted rights to do so; that could be via Visa applications, meeting a points-based immigration system etc.
USA, like many other nations, will have it's own rules (whether they be bsed on 'unreachable' targets or characteristics or not) to allow somebody to live and work there. The USA can decide to change any rules as it wishes to suit its need, like many other nations.
My main point is irrelevant of Brits who wish to Emigrate

 

[monkeybarry]

Thats generally because the vast majority of Brits goign abroad to work do so with some kind of financial security not for the lure of milk and honey

I think you'll find it has to do with colonialism actually