Politics, politics, politics

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I don't think that you are going to convince anyone (or at least should not) with unsubstantiated opinions. Are you able to find any independent sources that can back up your view that the pressure on public services is down to immigration from the EU rather than an aging population and under investment?

Have to make a choice under investment or bonuses, no brainer

 

[milo]

Have to make a choice under investment or bonuses, no brainer

I'm not sure what you mean here.

To me it seems really clear.

EU migrants pay more in tax than they take out. If they are putting additional strain on the NHS, their tax contributions should cover this. In which case, it is the government that we should be blaming and not EU immigrants.

The one condition I would put on this is that EU immigrants are overwhelmingly of working age and generally at the younger end of this scale. Young people are typically less frequent users of the NHS than the old.

We have an aging UK born population. Pensioners are less economically active than people of working ags and certainly not net contributors to public funds. People use the health service far more in their later years than they do in the rest of their life. With an growing elderly population and less people to foot the bill, if we do not increase the number of tax payers through immigration, we will have to increase the level of tax or cut services.

 

[the dza]

I'm not sure what you mean here.

To me it seems really clear.

EU migrants pay more in tax than they take out. If they are putting additional strain on the NHS, their tax contributions should cover this. In which case, it is the government that we should be blaming and not EU immigrants.

The one condition I would put on this is that EU immigrants are overwhelmingly of working age and generally at the younger end of this scale. Young people are typically less frequent users of the NHS than the young and old.

We have an aging UK born population. Pensioners are broadly economically inactive and certainly not net contributors to public funds. People use the health service far more in their later years than they do in the rest of their life. With an growing elderly population and less people to fit the bill, if we do not increase the number of tax payers through immigration, we will have to increase the level of tax or cut services.

I think it'd be fair to ask which EU migrants though. I have no doubt that skilled migrants who earn good money will pay in more tax than they take out. But if they do unskilled, low-paid work - especially if they have children - then in pure monetary terms, they will get more out than they put in. I know that because I do low-paid, unskilled work and so I know the in-work benefits you can get from the government. It's more than the tax you pay in (I know, right, string me up!) and that's before you add in using the NHS, schools, etc.

Now, I don't have a problem with immigration. I don't care if I'm working alongside someone from Poland or Portsmouth, as long as they ain't a qunt. But I think, in the main, the people who want us to leave over immigration want to cut down on unskilled migrants who work low-paid jobs that any British person could do. And, as I said in a previous post, other than fruit picking type farm work (I don't know anyone, British or foreign who does this, but I'm told it's mostly foreigners), I don't know of any jobs that British people don't/won't do.

 

[Baleforce]

my experience is that British millenials generally won't do anything, shocking worth ethic, expect the moon on a stick, any excuse to down tools or shift a job on, entitled attitude, always moaning about pay and conditions, badly educated (and often proud of it), one in ten are worth keeping

we've fostered a generation who feel they are owed a living rather than having to earn it

you'll hear lots of moaning about people being undercut by "cheaper labour", the truth is they are being outperformed by harder working smarter people

 

[the dza]

my experience is that British millenials generally won't do anything, shocking worth ethic, expect the moon on a stick, any excuse to down tools or shift a job on, entitled attitude, always moaning about pay and conditions, badly educated (and often proud of it), one in ten are worth keeping

we've fostered a generation who feel they are owed a living rather than having to earn it

you'll hear lots of moaning about people being undercut by "cheaper labour", the truth is they are being outperformed by harder working smarter people

@galeforce I just think that's true in some cases, not in others. Writing off everyone with a stereotype is bullsh1t.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I'm not sure what you mean here.

To me it seems really clear.

EU migrants pay more in tax than they take out. If they are putting additional strain on the NHS, their tax contributions should cover this. In which case, it is the government that we should be blaming and not EU immigrants.

The one condition I would put on this is that EU immigrants are overwhelmingly of working age and generally at the younger end of this scale. Young people are typically less frequent users of the NHS than the young and old.

We have an aging UK born population. Pensioners are less economically active than people of working ags and certainly not net contributors to public funds. People use the health service far more in their later years than they do in the rest of their life. With an growing elderly population and less people to fit the bill, if we do not increase the number of tax payers through immigration, we will have to increase the level of tax or cut services.

I mean most business managers would rather have a bonus than see money re-invested in a company as they will be moving on once they've cut the workforce and the NHS is now a business and not a SERVICE.

 

[milo]

I think it'd be fair to ask which EU migrants though. I have no doubt that skilled migrants who earn good money will pay in more tax than they take out. But if they do unskilled, low-paid work - especially if they have children - then in pure monetary terms, they will get more out than they put in. I know that because I do low-paid, unskilled work and so I know the in-work benefits you can get from the government. It's more than the tax you pay in (I know, right, string me up!) and that's before you add in using the NHS, schools, etc.

Now, I don't have a problem with immigration. I don't care if I'm working alongside someone from Poland or Portsmouth, as long as they ain't a qunt. But I think, in the main, the people who want us to leave over immigration want to cut down on unskilled migrants who work low-paid jobs that any British person could do. And, as I said in a previous post, other than fruit picking type farm work (I don't know anyone, British or foreign who does this, but I'm told it's mostly foreigners), I don't know of any jobs that British people don't/won't do.

I posted links to data on this in this thread earlier this week. The HMRC data shows that recent EU migrants pay £2.5bn more in tax than they take out. The fact check link that I posted covered the cost to the NHS.

I have pulled out some data on school numbers but haven't posted it because I haven't wanted to spam this thread but I would be happy to post it if people are interested. Off the top of my head, the senior school number have remained reasonably static, there has been an increase in junior school pupils but it was within the margins of previous fluctuations.

 

[Baleforce]

@galeforce I just think that's true in some cases, not in others. Writing off everyone with a stereotype is bullsh1t.

I'm not writing off everyone with a stereotype (only 90% ), and I've prefaced it as purely anecdotal

 

[Baleforce]

I posted links to data on this in this thread earlier this week. The HMRC data shows that recent EU migrants pay £2.5bn more in tax than they take out. The fact check link that I posted covered the cost to the NHS.

I have pulled out some data on school numbers but haven't posted it because I haven't wanted to spam this thread but I would be happy to post it if people are interested. Off the top of my head, the senior school number have remained reasonably static, there has been an increase in junior school pupils but it was within the margins of previous fluctuations.

the more facts the better

this is a big deal and there is a fudgeton of bad information out there

 

[milo]

I've tried to pull out some impartial links to information on an ageing population and the impact on NHS of EU immigration. I am posting the following without comment at this stage but would be interested in what other people think of what they say.

https://21stcenturychallenges.org/britains-greying-population/

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-nhs-staff/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36345081

 

[the dza]

I'm not writing off everyone with a stereotype (only 90% ), and I've prefaced it as purely anecdotal

Fair enough.

 

[milo]

the more facts the better

this is a big deal and there is a fudgeton of bad information out there

This is a link to the data

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/schools-pupils-and-their-characteristics-january-2015

The following tables are lifted from it. This one is on school numbers

and this graph shows the number of schools

I do not have any data to hand on how many of the increase in junior school numbers is down to EU immigration but I think that it is fair to assume that it would be less than 50%.

 

[Robspur12]

my experience is that British millenials generally won't do anything, shocking worth ethic, expect the moon on a stick, any excuse to down tools or shift a job on, entitled attitude, always moaning about pay and conditions, badly educated (and often proud of it), one in ten are worth keeping

we've fostered a generation who feel they are owed a living rather than having to earn it

you'll hear lots of moaning about people being undercut by "cheaper labour", the truth is they are being outperformed by harder working smarter people

I am very pro European and am in the remain camp and being a second generation immigrant myself I hold my head in my hands at some of the anti immigrant rhetoric. However, silly generalisations like this do nothing for the "remain" argument. Most, although clearly not all, English youngsters I have met are hard working, motivated and often highly skilled. There is nothing wrong with wanting to work with decent pay and working conditions, I am sure you have them in your job. The fact that many immigrants at the bottom of the employment ladder are willing to work for £1 per hour, are unaware of their employment rights and then live in garages, sheds or dangerously overcrowded or unfit housing is not something we should be proud of.

 

[the dza]

I posted links to data on this in this thread earlier this week. The HMRC data shows that recent EU migrants pay £2.5bn more in tax than they take out. The fact check link that I posted covered the cost to the NHS.

I have pulled out some data on school numbers but haven't posted it because I haven't wanted to spam this thread but I would be happy to post it if people are interested. Off the top of my head, the senior school number have remained reasonably static, there has been an increase in junior school pupils but it was within the margins of previous fluctuations.

I appreciate your efforts Milo (don't mean that in a p1ss-taking way either). What I meant though, is that if a migrant is doing a low-wage job and getting decent in-work benefits (which they will, if they have a kid) then they can't be net contributors, the same as a British worker doing a low-wage job won't be a net contributor in terms of tax. So the £2.5bn is coming from those migrants who are earning more money. But the migrants people on the leave side (generally) don't want are those who come and do the low-wage, low skilled jobs. Most of them seem quite happy for the more skilled migrants to come and work (although some on the leave side don't want any migration at all, it seems).

 

[Baleforce]

I am very pro European and am in the remain camp and being a second generation immigrant myself I hold my head in my hands at some of the anti immigrant rhetoric. However, silly generalisations like this do nothing for the "remain" argument. Most, although clearly not all, English youngsters I have met are hard working, motivated and often highly skilled. There is nothing wrong with wanting to work with decent pay and working conditions, I am sure you have them in your job. The fact that many immigrants at the bottom of the employment ladder are willing to work for £1 per hour, are unaware of their employment rights and then live in garages, sheds or dangerously overcrowded or unfit housing is not something we should be proud of.

as I've said, it's purely anecdotal

my opinion is you get decent pay when you have shown you are worth it, I started my career working for travel expenses (again, anecdotal), experience and training has value too, this seems to be overlooked (true story, an on trial junior turned down a full time post as they didn't fancy working on Sundays!)

completely agree regarding the advantages taken on foreign workers, completely unacceptable, my experience is with so called "white collar work" rather than "manual labour"

 

[Baleforce]

This is a link to the data

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/schools-pupils-and-their-characteristics-january-2015

The following tables are lifted from it. This one is on school numbers

and this graph shows the number of schools

I do not have any data to hand on how many of the increase in junior school numbers is down to EU immigration but I think that it is fair to assume that it would be less than 50%.

most interesting to me is the dropping secondary numbers, up until recently it's tracked with primary

 

[glasgowspur]

my experience is that British millenials generally won't do anything, shocking worth ethic, expect the moon on a stick, any excuse to down tools or shift a job on, entitled attitude, always moaning about pay and conditions, badly educated (and often proud of it), one in ten are worth keeping

we've fostered a generation who feel they are owed a living rather than having to earn it

you'll hear lots of moaning about people being undercut by "cheaper labour", the truth is they are being outperformed by harder working smarter people

I agree, and it largely stems from the parents telling them how special they are.
You're not special and you aren't due anything you don't work for.

 

[glasgowspur]

I'm not sure what you mean here.

To me it seems really clear.

EU migrants pay more in tax than they take out. If they are putting additional strain on the NHS, their tax contributions should cover this. In which case, it is the government that we should be blaming and not EU immigrants.

The one condition I would put on this is that EU immigrants are overwhelmingly of working age and generally at the younger end of this scale. Young people are typically less frequent users of the NHS than the young and old.

We have an aging UK born population. Pensioners are less economically active than people of working ags and certainly not net contributors to public funds. People use the health service far more in their later years than they do in the rest of their life. With an growing elderly population and less people to fit the bill, if we do not increase the number of tax payers through immigration, we will have to increase the level of tax or cut services.

Surely though if you have paid into the NHS for 50 years with little use when you reach pension age you have built up enough credit to be treated. That's the whole point, national INSURANCE. The problem isn't an aging population, its politicians using the NHS as a political point scoring exercise and spunking the money away in endless reforms that achieve f*** all.

 

[milo]

Surely though if you have paid into the NHS for 50 years with little use when you reach pension age you have built up enough credit to be treated. That's the whole point, national INSURANCE. The problem isn't an aging population, its politicians using the NHS as a political point scoring exercise and spunking the money away in endless reforms that achieve f*** all.

That's not how it works though, the government doesn't bank your NI contributions to pay for your state pension and health care in old age. The pensions and health care of today's pensioners are paid for by today's tax payers.

If you have an increasing number of pensioners and a smaller proportion of the population that are economically active you have a few choices. You can increase tax or cut services.

I agree about the NHS being used as a political football and needless reforms though.

 

[milo]