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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

monkeybarry said:
We live in the information age - there is no excuse anymore for going down those routes until it is either what you actually believe or are comfortable to accept.
Everyone has the tools to be different in their pocket - whether it's needing to learn critical thinking or counselling for self esteem or information about the reality of right wing tropes. Staying in that mind set in the information age is a choice.
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You're being logical here Barry.
BUT you're missing so so much.
 
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SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Everyone has the tools in theory but unfortunately we live in the age of the algorithmic timeline. Everyone just gets fed more of what is going to bait them into reacting. I think it’s done enormous damage to democracy - a handful of tech bros had no idea what they were inflicting on the world when they rolled out social media. No one actually talks to each other anymore. No one is willing to discuss trade offs, or reach a consensus. Everyone can demand things exactly the way they want them.
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Social Media is the world's biggest problem...it has transcended everything else. And when we layer AI quickly on the back of it....humanity will have a big problem.

We fear for the kids BUT it's the 'adults' that make the decisions and run the world...and literally nothing is done. Tech bros rejoice from their ivory towers.
 
Rafa87 said:
Honestly, I think it’s giving a large number of the people at that march too much credit, I think it’s true some are susceptible due to the context of their own lives however I would say an even larger amount of people at that march actually don’t have too bad of a life in comparison to the majority but finally someone has provided them a chance to be who they really are. It’s a chance to breathe not because you’re honest, but because you can now fully take the mask off.

The reason many of them are susceptible is because really, it’s what they want to hear. They don’t have to just say it to their families in their own homes anymore, they don’t have to be quiet like they have been since the 70’s and 80’s, they now have the chance to say it openly amongst people with the same views as them. Last summer saw the beginnings of it and it’s growing and being more normalised as it’s turning into a political point rather than a human one.

There are bad people of every colour, religion, faith, gender, and any other context you want to refer to them in, but these marches aren’t about that, and they aren’t about making a political point, they’re 85% about getting racists mobilised, and spreading division and hate, and 15% the people Steff mentions. If I’m really honest, I think I might be being generous with 15% as well, that number will be made up of people like the video clips you see on social media of school kids who have gone down there for the day, can’t actually tell you what it’s about and just thought it would be “a laugh”. Along with someone’s elderly neighbour from an affluent area who has seen the world change after much generational racism and believes in the word of that nice man Nigel who wears a suit and tells her that the one person of colour in her road is going to drag it all down.

Sure there’s something to be said for educating people and showing them the truth, they’re simple fact is many of these don’t want that, they’re where they want to be.
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Good post Rafa.

Edit: definitely some venn diagram crossover within those groups
 
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Rafa87 said:
Honestly, I think it’s giving a large number of the people at that march too much credit, I think it’s true some are susceptible due to the context of their own lives however I would say an even larger amount of people at that march actually don’t have too bad of a life in comparison to the majority but finally someone has provided them a chance to be who they really are. It’s a chance to breathe not because you’re honest, but because you can now fully take the mask off.

The reason many of them are susceptible is because really, it’s what they want to hear. They don’t have to just say it to their families in their own homes anymore, they don’t have to be quiet like they have been since the 70’s and 80’s, they now have the chance to say it openly amongst people with the same views as them. Last summer saw the beginnings of it and it’s growing and being more normalised as it’s turning into a political point rather than a human one.

There are bad people of every colour, religion, faith, gender, and any other context you want to refer to them in, but these marches aren’t about that, and they aren’t about making a political point, they’re 85% about getting racists mobilised, and spreading division and hate, and 15% the people Steff mentions. If I’m really honest, I think I might be being generous with 15% as well, that number will be made up of people like the video clips you see on social media of school kids who have gone down there for the day, can’t actually tell you what it’s about and just thought it would be “a laugh”. Along with someone’s elderly neighbour from an affluent area who has seen the world change after much generational racism and believes in the word of that nice man Nigel who wears a suit and tells her that the one person of colour in her road is going to drag it all down.

Sure there’s something to be said for educating people and showing them the truth, they’re simple fact is many of these don’t want that, they’re where they want to be.
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So with that all said....what is the end game for these people? What satisfies their minds?
 
Was out to play snooker with my childhood pals yesterday and we were discussing how we have never felt less welcome in the country we were all born in. None of us has dual nationality. None of our kids are bilingual now.

And we still want to think we aren't less. But it's clear to many we are. Good news on a daily basis we don't feel it in our safe bubble. It's when we go out to any where leafy or less cosmopolitan. And maybe now we've succumbed to paranoia. Are they really staring. Were they really ruder to my wife because she likes to put a cloth on her head. It's just very urghh.
 
P.D. said:
What's democratic about a few people making a decision behind closed doors that could affect tens of millions of people?
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I didn't say a few people. I said consensus amongst the membership. And the Greens need to understand that. Not fielding candidates is still a form of democracy as long as it is what the membership wants.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The problem is these people didn't have sufficient education. They don't have the tools of critical thinking
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That's exactly my point, and is my underlying response to @SissokoWasGood (BoL) & @thfcsteff (both brilliant replies - thank you both).

In the information age we all have access to those skills in our pocket.
It's a choice not to do so - but all life choices come down to values and, more pertinently, what we are prepared to lose; that can loss of face, loss of social circles, loss of argument etc etc.

All of those people have made a choice to continue on their path and a choice not to explore an alternative, despite having the tools to do so. To do so is hard - it's hard and scary to be vulnerable and challenge one self; but to not do so makes you a coward.

We can point to upbringing, education, social media algorithms all we want - but they are all just noise and excuses for the decisions we make, and we all make them.
(Would any of us give up enough of our comfortable western lives created by the crimes of empire to help people poorer countries have similar living standards? No, we wouldn't. We'll make changes and reductions, but no one would go far enough)

Those people have made value judgements and have to own them. If you are on a far right rally you either know what it means and agree with it and promote it, or you haven't bothered to understand it but you are still promoting it for a reason positive to your life.
I'd argue the latter is worse than the former; at least the former is truthful.
Both require full ownership, and there are no excuses based on circumstances, only choices based upon circumstances.
 
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monkeybarry said:
Those people have made value judgements and have to own them. If you are on a far right rally you either know what it means and agree with it and promote it, or you haven't bothered to understand it but you are still promoting it for a reason positive to your life.
I'd argue the latter is worse than the former; at least the former is truthful.
Both require full ownership, and there are excuses based on circumstances, only choices based upon circumstances.
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You have to be some kind of special to back someone like Tommy Robinson, especially on the subject of criminality in society given his criminal record. The fake Irish passport has a sense of irony to it given the immigration argument too.

Ultimately you can have issue with illegal immigration and not stand shoulder to shoulder with a known racist, thats what I find problematic with these rallies.

Also you have to be a proper idiot to donate money continuously to a man who go funded his future court costs only to plead guilty and run off with the money.........I mean come on

People are clearly being used as pawns in a grift by Farage and the likes of Tiny Tommy, how it can't be seen or acknowledged is really odd.

As for patriot, do me a favour

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WTAF

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Also what kind of special do you need to be to back this kind of outright bigotry, they do know many Jews don't also eat pork right??

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monkeybarry said:
That's exactly my point, and is my underlying response to @SissokoWasGood (BoL) & @thfcsteff (both brilliant replies - thank you both).

In the information age we all have access to those skills in our pocket.
It's a choice not to do so - but all life choices come down to values and, more pertinently, what we are prepared to lose; that can loss of face, loss of social circles, loss of argument etc etc.

All of those people have made a choice to continue on their path and a choice not to explore an alternative, despite having the tools to do so. To do so is hard - it's hard and scary to be vulnerable and challenge one self; but to not do so makes you a coward.

We can point to upbringing, education, social media algorithms all we want - but they are all just noise and excuses for the decisions we make, and we all make them.
(Would any of us give up enough of our comfortable western lives created by the crimes of empire to help people poorer countries have similar living standards? No, we wouldn't. We'll make changes and reductions, but no one would go far enough)

Those people have made value judgements and have to own them. If you are on a far right rally you either know what it means and agree with it and promote it, or you haven't bothered to understand it but you are still promoting it for a reason positive to your life.
I'd argue the latter is worse than the former; at least the former is truthful.
Both require full ownership, and there are no excuses based on circumstances, only choices based upon circumstances.
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monkeybarry said:
I'm not, I'm saying that the "so so much" is about personal responsibility and value choices.
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I've bleated on here for ages that good work is done looking inwards, at oneself. That's where the answers are for you.(not you!)

And it's easy to understand and grasp that if you are aware that critical thinking or emotional intelligence is a thing (notice I say aware, not possess, as you at least have the potential to be curious)

Unfortunately there are a large group of people who don't have that ability, despite, as you suggest, them having a 'smartphone' in their pocket...you might as well give them a guitar.

The smartphone (well social media really) is a behavioural trap, an attention trap, a mental manipulation trap. It's stolen quiet time, daydreaming, wonderment, curiosity, consolidation, self reflection, real life interactions, deep friendships, community...and on and on.

Most of these people (as evidenced when interviewed) haven't made value judgements, they wouldn't even know what that is, they can't be cohesive with what they are supporting or believe, beyond the tropes they're fed. I think it might be as simple as Rafa suggested, they've been given the license to be 'who they are', really are. And they seemingly appear 'useful idiots' for some.
 
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P.D. said:
I think him saying Brexit was a mistake and we should re-join was designing to flush Burnham out, he said at the Labour conference he'd like to rejoin but I believe this constituency voted by 2 to 1 to leave so he'll have to manage his views on that. I'm sure Wes was well aware before he did that interview, supports him in public whilst not so subtly drawing blood behind the scenes.
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Had the feeling that Streeting was doing exactly that too. He needs to get Lab members and more MPs meanwhile Burnham needs to win in a Brexit leaning constituency. As much as I think voters preferences may have changed in recent years, I can see it at a minimum being attack on Burnham’s authenticity. He’ll squirm trying to square that circle with those voters, and I suspect many will put him into the ‘they’re all the same’ camp.

Still not sure exactly how Streeting wins the Labour members, if Burnham falls and Rayner or Milliband step up. He’d have to run a phenomenal campaign. It’s just as we’ve seen so often recently the ‘I’m the one that can win, not just make you feel comfortable’ candidate never actually wins with the membership.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
I've bleated on here for ages that good work is done looking inwards, at oneself. That's where the answers are for you.(not you!)

And it's easy to understand and grasp that if you are aware that critical thinking or emotional intelligence is a thing (notice I say aware, not possess, as you at least have the potential to be curious)

Unfortunately there are a large group of people who don't have that ability, despite, as you suggest, them having a 'smartphone' in their pocket...you might as well give them a guitar.

The smartphone (well social media really) is a behavioural trap, an attention trap, a mental manipulation trap. It's stolen quiet time, daydreaming, wonderment, curiosity, consolidation, self reflection, real life interactions, deep friendships, community...and on and on.

Most of these people (as evidenced when interviewed) haven't made value judgements, they wouldn't even know what that is, they can't be cohesive with what they are supporting or believe, beyond the tropes they're fed. I think it might be as simple as Rafa suggested, they've been given the license to be 'who they are', really are. And they seemingly appear 'useful idiots' for some.
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I agree with all of that except one part - having/not having the ability to be aware critical thinking and emotional intelligence is a thing.

Twenty, maybe fifteen, years ago I would have accepted that.
But now, information and analysis is everywhere - on TV, in computer games, fitness tracking apps, betting, VAR etc etc.

The volume of people not exposed to it is tiny - so the awareness is there for anyone that doesn't choose to look away from it.
The opposing views are also there.

To take a deeper look means being vulnerable.
To become vulnerable you have to develop the skills - these are available and easily accessible.
To be vulnerable will involve the kind of loss I described in the above post. Avoiding social one economic loss is understandable - but it's still cowardice, and still a choice.

Being manipulated as a useful idiot is a choice - it's a choice not to question, it's a choice to take the easy path despite having access to a different one.

We all (with exceptions/variations for things like neurodivergence) have agency, even in the face of being sold to. How we act (whether that be taking an action or not taking an action) on that agency, and how vulnerable we are prepared to make ourselves or how much loss we are willing to accept, is choice. Hard choice, but still choice.

And that's why I hold little stock in the argument about the external factors. Of course the external factors like twitter, reform etc have an influence - it would be ridiculous to think otherwise, but they are still a choice and the tools are available both in society and by dint of being homo sapien, to choose differently.

That leaves two possibilities:
I. Those people believe what they are marching for
II. They have made a choice (whether active or passive) to match in the name of something for reasons other than the substance of the ideology. That's cowardice.
 
Selective outrage seems the name of the game, Trumps questionable past when it comes to women seemingly not an issue for those supposedly all for women's rights.

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