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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

monkeybarry said:
We live in the information age - there is no excuse anymore for going down those routes until it is either what you actually believe or are comfortable to accept.
Everyone has the tools to be different in their pocket - whether it's needing to learn critical thinking or counselling for self esteem or information about the reality of right wing tropes. Staying in that mind set in the information age is a choice.
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You're being logical here Barry.
BUT you're missing so so much.
 
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SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Everyone has the tools in theory but unfortunately we live in the age of the algorithmic timeline. Everyone just gets fed more of what is going to bait them into reacting. I think it’s done enormous damage to democracy - a handful of tech bros had no idea what they were inflicting on the world when they rolled out social media. No one actually talks to each other anymore. No one is willing to discuss trade offs, or reach a consensus. Everyone can demand things exactly the way they want them.
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Social Media is the world's biggest problem...it has transcended everything else. And when we layer AI quickly on the back of it....humanity will have a big problem.

We fear for the kids BUT it's the 'adults' that make the decisions and run the world...and literally nothing is done. Tech bros rejoice from their ivory towers.
 
Rafa87 said:
Honestly, I think it’s giving a large number of the people at that march too much credit, I think it’s true some are susceptible due to the context of their own lives however I would say an even larger amount of people at that march actually don’t have too bad of a life in comparison to the majority but finally someone has provided them a chance to be who they really are. It’s a chance to breathe not because you’re honest, but because you can now fully take the mask off.

The reason many of them are susceptible is because really, it’s what they want to hear. They don’t have to just say it to their families in their own homes anymore, they don’t have to be quiet like they have been since the 70’s and 80’s, they now have the chance to say it openly amongst people with the same views as them. Last summer saw the beginnings of it and it’s growing and being more normalised as it’s turning into a political point rather than a human one.

There are bad people of every colour, religion, faith, gender, and any other context you want to refer to them in, but these marches aren’t about that, and they aren’t about making a political point, they’re 85% about getting racists mobilised, and spreading division and hate, and 15% the people Steff mentions. If I’m really honest, I think I might be being generous with 15% as well, that number will be made up of people like the video clips you see on social media of school kids who have gone down there for the day, can’t actually tell you what it’s about and just thought it would be “a laugh”. Along with someone’s elderly neighbour from an affluent area who has seen the world change after much generational racism and believes in the word of that nice man Nigel who wears a suit and tells her that the one person of colour in her road is going to drag it all down.

Sure there’s something to be said for educating people and showing them the truth, they’re simple fact is many of these don’t want that, they’re where they want to be.
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Good post Rafa.

Edit: definitely some venn diagram crossover within those groups
 
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Rafa87 said:
Honestly, I think it’s giving a large number of the people at that march too much credit, I think it’s true some are susceptible due to the context of their own lives however I would say an even larger amount of people at that march actually don’t have too bad of a life in comparison to the majority but finally someone has provided them a chance to be who they really are. It’s a chance to breathe not because you’re honest, but because you can now fully take the mask off.

The reason many of them are susceptible is because really, it’s what they want to hear. They don’t have to just say it to their families in their own homes anymore, they don’t have to be quiet like they have been since the 70’s and 80’s, they now have the chance to say it openly amongst people with the same views as them. Last summer saw the beginnings of it and it’s growing and being more normalised as it’s turning into a political point rather than a human one.

There are bad people of every colour, religion, faith, gender, and any other context you want to refer to them in, but these marches aren’t about that, and they aren’t about making a political point, they’re 85% about getting racists mobilised, and spreading division and hate, and 15% the people Steff mentions. If I’m really honest, I think I might be being generous with 15% as well, that number will be made up of people like the video clips you see on social media of school kids who have gone down there for the day, can’t actually tell you what it’s about and just thought it would be “a laugh”. Along with someone’s elderly neighbour from an affluent area who has seen the world change after much generational racism and believes in the word of that nice man Nigel who wears a suit and tells her that the one person of colour in her road is going to drag it all down.

Sure there’s something to be said for educating people and showing them the truth, they’re simple fact is many of these don’t want that, they’re where they want to be.
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So with that all said....what is the end game for these people? What satisfies their minds?
 
Was out to play snooker with my childhood pals yesterday and we were discussing how we have never felt less welcome in the country we were all born in. None of us has dual nationality. None of our kids are bilingual now.

And we still want to think we aren't less. But it's clear to many we are. Good news on a daily basis we don't feel it in our safe bubble. It's when we go out to any where leafy or less cosmopolitan. And maybe now we've succumbed to paranoia. Are they really staring. Were they really ruder to my wife because she likes to put a cloth on her head. It's just very urghh.
 
P.D. said:
What's democratic about a few people making a decision behind closed doors that could affect tens of millions of people?
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I didn't say a few people. I said consensus amongst the membership. And the Greens need to understand that. Not fielding candidates is still a form of democracy as long as it is what the membership wants.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The problem is these people didn't have sufficient education. They don't have the tools of critical thinking
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That's exactly my point, and is my underlying response to @SissokoWasGood (BoL) & @thfcsteff (both brilliant replies - thank you both).

In the information age we all have access to those skills in our pocket.
It's a choice not to do so - but all life choices come down to values and, more pertinently, what we are prepared to lose; that can loss of face, loss of social circles, loss of argument etc etc.

All of those people have made a choice to continue on their path and a choice not to explore an alternative, despite having the tools to do so. To do so is hard - it's hard and scary to be vulnerable and challenge one self; but to not do so makes you a coward.

We can point to upbringing, education, social media algorithms all we want - but they are all just noise and excuses for the decisions we make, and we all make them.
(Would any of us give up enough of our comfortable western lives created by the crimes of empire to help people poorer countries have similar living standards? No, we wouldn't. We'll make changes and reductions, but no one would go far enough)

Those people have made value judgements and have to own them. If you are on a far right rally you either know what it means and agree with it and promote it, or you haven't bothered to understand it but you are still promoting it for a reason positive to your life.
I'd argue the latter is worse than the former; at least the former is truthful.
Both require full ownership, and there are no excuses based on circumstances, only choices based upon circumstances.
 
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monkeybarry said:
Those people have made value judgements and have to own them. If you are on a far right rally you either know what it means and agree with it and promote it, or you haven't bothered to understand it but you are still promoting it for a reason positive to your life.
I'd argue the latter is worse than the former; at least the former is truthful.
Both require full ownership, and there are excuses based on circumstances, only choices based upon circumstances.
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You have to be some kind of special to back someone like Tommy Robinson, especially on the subject of criminality in society given his criminal record. The fake Irish passport has a sense of irony to it given the immigration argument too.

Ultimately you can have issue with illegal immigration and not stand shoulder to shoulder with a known racist, thats what I find problematic with these rallies.
 
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