Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[thfcsteff]

I hate the Tories, I hate Labour....

But the culture war was started by the left and their insanity, resulting in the current backlash to all.

As for the riots, well, they really screwed up. They are not going to win the next election, they are more hated than the Tories. The only reason they won they election was not because people put their trust in them, it;s the fact they people didn't vote for the conservatives.

Labour have zero vision, they labelled most of the country far right during the riots, rather than actually listening to people and actually addressing their concerns. No, they labelled everyone far right, arrested them all regardless of how small their participation was, publicly humiliated them. Whilst at the same time allowing Muslims to walk around the streets armed with machetes and knives, nothing done regarding they rioting they got up to, not public humiliation.

They negated on ending the energy market scam, they are not addressing the concerns of the people and for all the pointing out the gifts the Tories got, immediately do the same thing.

Labour are a dead party, walking.

The 'culture war' was exacerbated and accelerated by right-wingers and racist groups who sought to infer that every Muslim is an extremist, and even went further in inferring that any 'brown' religion was (by proxy) extreme (how many times do you see ignorant tossers conflate Sikhs with Muslims just because they're largely brown and wear turbans)?

I agree re: the left reaction, which happened precisely as a reaction to the first moves from racists, seperatists and right-wingers (who - BTW, were all driven to the altar by subtle Russian interference and division tactics). It's a COLLECTIVE FAILURE which has seen middle ground opinions and discussions largely eliminated, resulting in these extreme opinions on either side.

As for the second bold-faced point I highlit above, when are people going to take responsibility for their own opinions versus lack of knowledge. Again, no-one likes an extremist. I dislike Muslim extremists JUST like I dislike Catholic and Christian extremists. Do we go around saying every Catholic is a pedophile? No, because that'd be absolutely absurd and grossly untrue. The VAST majority of Catholics get on with their lives believing what they believe and not harming others. Ditto extremist Christians, are they all anti-abortion female subjugating facists? Of course not. It's the same with Muslims, the VAST majority of whom live their lives believing what they believe and not having any wish whatsoever to harm others.

UNFORTUNATELY, the disenfranchised, scared and fearful get played by clams like Farage and Robinson. I actually agree with you - as a society we DO need to listen to those folks, their concerns are as worthy of being heard as mine, but they key is it HAS to be on a level playing field where those communities feel they will be respected but they must also be prepared to accept facts too. And the facts are that extremists are just that; extremists. And those extremists are a small percentage of what is (in all religions and cultures) a largely peaceful set of beliefs which people use for their own comfort and support to get through a day.

The BIGGEST fear the status quo have is the mass public recognising there has been a zealous revival of the class war which has pitted factions against factions WITHIN the masses, and in doing so has sub-divided a very powerful group; imagine if the sub-divided masses realized they had a major thing in common, getting fudged by the small percentage minority, and decided to do something collectively about it? Thus the divisions keep being sewn...

 

[thfcsteff]

I don't think it is a false perception, I think it's very much an actual perception. In the case of unisex toilets, most people absolutely don't want them, but have either had them forced upon them or know people that have. What's the false perception in having to use a unisex toilet at, say, your workplace and not feeling comfortable in doing so?

In terms of immigration, the vast majority of the major problems we face, from pollution/emissions, to the NHS capacity, housing crisis, even to the fact that are sewer systems are now at capacity and constantly have to be discharged into rivers and seas to prevent back-up into people's homes - all of these are down to unsustainable population growth, which given the birth rate is dying on its arse is almost entirely currently down to levels of immigration.

And not only that, the rate of immigration has been so great that we've seen rapid and fundamental changes to communities, that more and more people do not feel at home, safe or secure anymore.

These are not perceived problems based on misinformation, they're things people are confronted with on a daily basis when leaving their homes.

Politicians on the left, centre and centre-right have been slow to detect the shift in mood and slow to react to warning signs. The far right are on the rise across Europe as a result mainly because increasing numbers of people feel their feelings and experiences are being belittled, that they're not being listened to and that they have no other option but to go there.

I agree that the planet as it stands is increasingly becoming unfit to support the growing population. I also agree that increasing numbers of people believe they are being -to use a colloquialism - fudged off. And I also agree that we must work harder to find ways to bridge that communication gap. But there also has to be a collective stand-down from extreme points of view in order for that to happen, as there are agents of agitation who are loving this divisiveness. Again, as I said in a previous answer, white/black/brown/yellow - most of us have far more in common than not and these are the issues society needs to coalesce on so as we can find a path forwards which recognises that and smashes the nefarious agents of chaos who feed off this division ravenously. Sadly, it is easier said than done...I remain hopeful that open conversations such as the ones in this thread can perhaps replicate in communities throughout, but again, everyone has to be prepared to listen to others and accept faults within their own POVs...

 

[SpurMeUp]

I don't think it is a false perception, I think it's very much an actual perception. In the case of unisex toilets, most people absolutely don't want them, but have either had them forced upon them or know people that have. What's the false perception in having to use a unisex toilet at, say, your workplace and not feeling comfortable in doing so?

What kind of lav do you use at home?

In terms of immigration, the vast majority of the major problems we face, from pollution/emissions, to the NHS capacity, housing crisis, even to the fact that are sewer systems are now at capacity and constantly have to be discharged into rivers and seas to prevent back-up into people's homes - all of these are down to unsustainable population growth, which given the birth rate is dying on its arse is almost entirely currently down to levels of immigration.

I’m really titalated by the idea it’s foreign poos that are the issue with our sewer system

The NHS would shrivel up and cease to function without the immigrants mate. Have you been in a hospital lately? The ratio of British born staff to forgin born must be about 1:4.

We certainly have an issue with an ever expanding population. Personally I’d blame the mugs who voted for Brexit. Immigration has leaped forward since. And where workers used to go back to their country of origin after working here, now immigration from further a field means people are set to stay. And the reality is, the UK relies on immigration both for essential services and to bolster growth in our economy.

And not only that, the rate of immigration has been so great that we've seen rapid and fundamental changes to communities, that more and more people do not feel at home, safe or secure anymore.

These are not perceived problems based on misinformation, they're things people are confronted with on a daily basis when leaving their homes.

Politicians on the left, centre and centre-right have been slow to detect the shift in mood and slow to react to warning signs. The far right are on the rise across Europe as a result mainly because increasing numbers of people feel their feelings and experiences are being belittled, that they're not being listened to and that they have no other option but to go there.

Okay so you’ve expressed what you think is the problem. It’s not original it’s the same old same old immigrant are the problem diatribe every Tom, dingdong and Nigel is sniveling over. But you’ve not suggested one thing to solve the perceived issue. What are you suggesting doing, that these politicians are not doing?

 

[Kompakted]

What kind of lav do you use at home?

I’m really titalated by the idea it’s foreign poos that are the issue with our sewer system

The NHS would shrivel up and cease to function without the immigrants mate. Have you been in a hospital lately? The ratio of British born staff to forgin born must be about 1:4.

We certainly have an issue with an ever expanding population. Personally I’d blame the mugs who voted for Brexit. Immigration has leaped forward since. And where workers used to go back to their country of origin after working here, now immigration from further a field means people are set to stay. And the reality is, the UK relies on immigration both for essential services and to bolster growth in our economy.


Okay so you’ve expressed what you think is the problem. It’s not original it’s the same old same old immigrant are the problem diatribe every Tom, dingdong and Nigel is sniveling over. But you’ve not agreed one thing to solve the perceived issue. What are you suggesting that these politicians are not doing?

It's a political choice to rely on immigrant Labour to staff the NHS. The NHS would not shrivel up and die without immigration. Neither would the economy. This is a falsehood perpetually peddled. In a way immigration is exploitative. It always has been, right back to Irish workers being employed during the industrial revolution as they'd work for less. Cut immigration and employers would have to pay wages that British workers are willing to work for. The solution to the problem isn't rocket science and Nigel Farage and co. are actually spot on with this, hence why their vote share is increasing. You simply slash immigration significantly. There will maybe have to be a phased approach in some industries, but the idea that we need immigration or even economic growth is a lie. One necessitates the other in a never-ending doom cycle of "to sustain growth you need more people and to maintain living standards for more people you need more growth and more consumption"

 

[Baleforce]

I don't think it is a false perception, I think it's very much an actual perception. In the case of unisex toilets, most people absolutely don't want them, but have either had them forced upon them or know people that have. What's the false perception in having to use a unisex toilet at, say, your workplace and not feeling comfortable in doing so?

In terms of immigration, the vast majority of the major problems we face, from pollution/emissions, to the NHS capacity, housing crisis, even to the fact that are sewer systems are now at capacity and constantly have to be discharged into rivers and seas to prevent back-up into people's homes - all of these are down to unsustainable population growth, which given the birth rate is dying on its arse is almost entirely currently down to levels of immigration.

And not only that, the rate of immigration has been so great that we've seen rapid and fundamental changes to communities, that more and more people do not feel at home, safe or secure anymore.

These are not perceived problems based on misinformation, they're things people are confronted with on a daily basis when leaving their homes.

Politicians on the left, centre and centre-right have been slow to detect the shift in mood and slow to react to warning signs. The far right are on the rise across Europe as a result mainly because increasing numbers of people feel their feelings and experiences are being belittled, that they're not being listened to and that they have no other option but to go there.

Unisex toilets are not new, pretty much every single unit shop and small office has one toilet, not to mention many many houses. Any issues are related to those who use them, and despite all the fear-mongering it’s not trans people that offer a threat.

On your second point, the problem isn’t immigration and a growing population, it’s lack of investment in services and infrastructure.

So yes, they are perceived problems, used as cover for the actual problems, which are corporate and political greed.

Politicians have been jumping on spacegoats rather than being honest and addressing the real issues.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Really?
Ok, when they the Tories stop being in the 'middle ground' and 'liberal' in your eyes?

After Disraeli.

Heath was fairly one nation i suppose

 

[Kompakted]

Unisex toilets are not new, pretty much every single unit shop and small office has one toilet, not to mention many many houses. Any issues are related to those who use them, and despite all the fear-mongering it’s not trans people that offer a threat.

On your second point, the problem isn’t immigration and a growing population, it’s lack of investment in services and infrastructure.

So yes, they are perceived problems, used as cover for the actual problems, which are corporate and political greed.

Politicians have been jumping on spacegoats rather than being honest and addressing the real issues.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. People accept single office toilets or single toilets in a coffee shop or similar environment. These are private places where you can lock yourself in a room and do your business without being disturbed.

My previous employer created unisex toilets where there were urinals and cubicals and where women had to walk past men weeing into a urinal. It's that kind of thing people have an allergic reaction to, and it's not a problem based on misinformation, its a problem of actusl experience and comfort.

As to your second point, investment in services and say new homes for the ever expanding population isn't a solution. It's a sticking plaster. Because guess what, we are eventually going to run out of room. Before we do that we will run out of affordable food and other resources.

Do you think that's being dramatic? The net migration rate currently is what, about half a million a year? That's 2.5 million over 5 years? 5 million per decade? That's the problem with your investment idea. By the time they've set up a project to assess the investment needs of the growing population and put some sort of plan together, the plan is woefully inadequate to deal with the new reality on the ground in terms of numbers.

 

[Baleforce]

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. People accept single office toilets or single toilets in a coffee shop or similar environment. These are private places where you can lock yourself in a room and do your business without being disturbed.

My previous employer created unisex toilets where there were urinals and cubicals and where women had to walk past men weeing into a urinal. It's that kind of thing people have an allergic reaction to, and it's not a problem based on misinformation, its a problem of actusl experience and comfort.

As to your second point, investment in services and say new homes for the ever expanding population isn't a solution. It's a sticking plaster. Because guess what, we are eventually going to run out of room. Before we do that we will run out of affordable food and other resources.

I don’t believe those bathrooms exist, there have been unisex toilets in london clubs for decades, it’s always cubicles, the only actual shared space is the sinks.

We make the hospitable planet smaller every day, yes it’s a sticking plaster, but that’s all we have for now, we all need to get better at sharing.

 

[SkipRat]

You’re quite the Anthropologist! What makes you think cultures are like Top of the Pops? That we could or should rank them?

How the hell do you rank cultures!? Would be fascinating. You might produce a Doctorate on this for the local anthropology department

Never mind the idiocy of trying to rank cultures. The premise that we are an ‘enlightened culture’ and others are ‘savages’ is a bit out dated. Don’t you concur old boy?

No I don't, because I am not a horrible **** who thinks that women should be treated as second class citizens restricting almost every aspect of their lives

Of course according to you these cultures are on par with those that protect women rights, allows them to get an education and career. Because treating women like **** is really something to be proud of right?

 

[Kompakted]

I don’t believe those bathrooms exist, there have been unisex toilets in london clubs for decades, it’s always cubicles, the only actual shared space is the sinks.

We make the hospitable planet smaller every day, yes it’s a sticking plaster, but that’s all we have for now, we all need to get better at sharing.

So you're saying that people that have experienced these bathrooms are all lying and in terms of point two, you first stated that immigration/population growth isn't a problem, it's only a perceived problem and can be solved by investment. You now admit it is an actual problem and investment is only a sticking plaster. Don't you see that this is the entire problem playing out in front of your eyes? People not on the far right are in actual denial about some blatantly obvious things and so are many until they actually have to confront reality. Once they do increasing numbers of people are finding it is only people like Farage that are even willing to seriously discuss these issues with the seriousness they deserve. If you don't want the Farages, Le Pens,.Wilders and Trumps of this world to dictate the solutions, you need to start admitting the problems and stop dismissing those that raise them.

 

[SkipRat]

From Badenochs comments, I believe she thinks certain people are worth less because of where they grew up.

I disagree with that.

I want equality for all, let everybody live in my liberal utopia, don’t gatekeep or other based on accidents of logistics.

So you believe, not that she actually is, just your interpretation.

I mean she is against Net Zero, that's a pretty bad of her.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I don’t believe those bathrooms exist, there have been unisex toilets in london clubs for decades, it’s always cubicles, the only actual shared space is the sinks.

We make the hospitable planet smaller every day, yes it’s a sticking plaster, but that’s all we have for now, we all need to get better at sharing.

My issue with unisex toilets are that im usually to tinkled to aim at anything smaller than a urinal, and dont think that really fair for the women that have to use that cubical later in the night. I just need that simple infalible steel wall option

 

[Kompakted]

My issue with unisex toilets are that im usually to tinkled to aim at anything smaller than a urinal, and dont think that really fair for the women that have to use that cubical later in the night. I just need that simple infalible steel wall option

Absolutely with you there. These days only takes a couple of pints for me to develop the accuracy of a Timo Werner shot.

 

[Baleforce]

So you're saying that people that have experienced these bathrooms are all lying and in terms of point two, you first stated that immigration/population growth isn't a problem, it's only a perceived problem and can be solved by investment. You now admit it is an actual problem and investment is only a sticking plaster. Don't you see that this is the entire problem playing out in front of your eyes? People not on the far right are in actual denial about some blatantly obvious things and so are many until they actually have to confront reality. Once they do increasing numbers of people are finding it is only people like Farage that are even willing to seriously discuss these issues with the seriousness they deserve. If you don't want the Farages, Le Pens,.Wilders and Trumps of this world to dictate the solutions, you need to start admitting the problems and stop dismissing those that raise them.

The problem isn’t “too many foreigners in the UK”, which is how the right wing parties are selling it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

It's a political choice to rely on immigrant Labour to staff the NHS. The NHS would not shrivel up and die without immigration. Neither would the economy. This is a falsehood perpetually peddled. In a way immigration is exploitative. It always has been, right back to Irish workers being employed during the industrial revolution as they'd work for less. Cut immigration and employers would have to pay wages that British workers are willing to work for. The solution to the problem isn't rocket science and Nigel Farage and co. are actually spot on with this, hence why their vote share is increasing. You simply slash immigration significantly. There will maybe have to be a phased approach in some industries, but the idea that we need immigration or even economic growth is a lie. One necessitates the other in a never-ending doom cycle of "to sustain growth you need more people and to maintain living standards for more people you need more growth and more consumption"

Are you going to take up nursing yourself? Do you expect others around you to? Or waiting tables or working on construction sites or caring for old people in homes cleaning up after them?

 

[SkipRat]

The 'culture war' was exacerbated and accelerated by right-wingers and racist groups who sought to infer that every Muslim is an extremist, and even went further in inferring that any 'brown' religion was (by proxy) extreme (how many times do you see ignorant tossers conflate Sikhs with Muslims just because they're largely brown and wear turbans)?

I agree re: the left reaction, which happened precisely as a reaction to the first moves from racists, seperatists and right-wingers (who - BTW, were all driven to the altar by subtle Russian interference and division tactics). It's a COLLECTIVE FAILURE which has seen middle ground opinions and discussions largely eliminated, resulting in these extreme opinions on either side.

As for the second bold-faced point I highlit above, when are people going to take responsibility for their own opinions versus lack of knowledge. Again, no-one likes an extremist. I dislike Muslim extremists JUST like I dislike Catholic and Christian extremists. Do we go around saying every Catholic is a pedophile? No, because that'd be absolutely absurd and grossly untrue. The VAST majority of Catholics get on with their lives believing what they believe and not harming others. Ditto extremist Christians, are they all anti-abortion female subjugating facists? Of course not. It's the same with Muslims, the VAST majority of whom live their lives believing what they believe and not having any wish whatsoever to harm others.

UNFORTUNATELY, the disenfranchised, scared and fearful get played by clams like Farage and Robinson. I actually agree with you - as a society we DO need to listen to those folks, their concerns are as worthy of being heard as mine, but they key is it HAS to be on a level playing field where those communities feel they will be respected but they must also be prepared to accept facts too. And the facts are that extremists are just that; extremists. And those extremists are a small percentage of what is (in all religions and cultures) a largely peaceful set of beliefs which people use for their own comfort and support to get through a day.

The BIGGEST fear the status quo have is the mass public recognising there has been a zealous revival of the class war which has pitted factions against factions WITHIN the masses, and in doing so has sub-divided a very powerful group; imagine if the sub-divided masses realized they had a major thing in common, getting fudged by the small percentage minority, and decided to do something collectively about it? Thus the divisions keep being sewn...

The bolded bit is just a conspiracy theory, and concerns over mass immigration go back before 1997 election, regarding the free movement people and a whole punch of countries joining the EU. Nothing to do with Russia, just that over 200,000 year net migration per year is completely unsustainable and even the most educated in the country knew it was wrong, even if they couldn't articulate better than a bumble brain.

And no, they don't get played by Farage and Robinson, they maybe be repugnant people, but they are raising serious questions and concerns.

Even in Europe, the influx of mass migration has unsettled so many countries, due to the consequences , crime and rape has gone up across Europe backed up by studies, not newspapers. Like this study from Sweden

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20961790.2020.1868681

With 47.7% of rapes committed by migrants, with majority of those committed by North Africa/Middle east accounting for 34.5% of rapes, and African's 19.1%, so over 50% of rapes by migrants from these two areas. This is repeated all across Europe. This is not Russian interference, this is what is actually happening that governments are trying to sweep under carpet... Nothing to see here. Even in the UK, it is still swept under that carpet.

And anyone who raises issues is far right, according Starmer. Lets not listen to these people who children are getting harrassed in the street and crime going up in these areas, just calm them far right.

The culture war was started by the left, stop rewriting history.

 

[SpurMeUp]

No I don't, because I am not a horrible **** who thinks that women should be treated as second class citizens restricting almost every aspect of their lives

Of course according to you these cultures are on par with those that protect women rights, allows them to get an education and career. Because treating women like **** is really something to be proud of right?

I wouldn’t try to put words into other people mouths when you can hardly spin a rational argument yourself.

There are cultures in Pupa New Guinea where eating other humans is part of an indigenous culture. They go to war, and they eat those they kill.

In your ‘higher’ culture, there are factories producing arms that kill far more people than a tribe living in the jungles of New Guinea.

What’s more your ‘savage’ in the jungle doesn’t kill children or women, they go to war man against man. In your country not many miles away from you, we produce incendiary weapons that have blown up school buses in Yemen killing swathes of innocent kids.

The so called savage doesn’t pollute or destroy his planet. How sophisticated are you really?

 

[SkipRat]

It's a political choice to rely on immigrant Labour to staff the NHS. The NHS would not shrivel up and die without immigration. Neither would the economy. This is a falsehood perpetually peddled. In a way immigration is exploitative. It always has been, right back to Irish workers being employed during the industrial revolution as they'd work for less. Cut immigration and employers would have to pay wages that British workers are willing to work for. The solution to the problem isn't rocket science and Nigel Farage and co. are actually spot on with this, hence why their vote share is increasing. You simply slash immigration significantly. There will maybe have to be a phased approach in some industries, but the idea that we need immigration or even economic growth is a lie. One necessitates the other in a never-ending doom cycle of "to sustain growth you need more people and to maintain living standards for more people you need more growth and more consumption"

This is one of the biggest lies ever told.

The problem with the NHS is staff retention, because working conditions and quality of of life in the UK is so fecking awful, nurses are getting trained and leaving. All migrant nurses are doing is covering the cracks of broken system. Fleecing other countries for the nurses, becuase governments are too fecking lazy to their job properly and run the country better for the people who live here instead in the interests of investers who suck vast amounts of money out of the of teh country.

So the truth is, if the UK had better quality of life and everything not being a scam to suck s dry, the NHS wouldn;t have retention problem, and we would need migrant nurse to plaster over a broken system.

As you say it's a political choice.

 

[SkipRat]

I wouldn’t try to put words into other people mouths when you can hardly spin a rational argument yourself.

There are cultures in Pupa New Guinea where eating other humans is part of an indigenous culture. They go to war, and they eat those they kill.

In your ‘higher’ culture, there are factories producing arms that kill far more people than a tribe living in the jungles of New Guinea.

What’s more your ‘savage’ in the jungle doesn’t kill children or women, they go to war man against man. In your country not many miles away from you, we produce incendiary weapons that have blown up school buses in Yemen killing swathes of innocent kids.

The so called savage doesn’t pollute or destroy his planet. How sophisticated are you really?

Not putting words in other peoples mouths, you did that to yourself.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Not putting words in other peoples mouths, you did that yourself.

It’s in black and white above mate. You said:

“Of course according to you these cultures are on par with those that protect women rights”

Putting words into peoples mouths. You have also failed to grasp that cultures are not something you play Top Trumps with. They are far more nuanced than that. All cultures have aspects that are abhorrent, delightful, unique etc.

My tip to you: stay clear of the real **** who propagate bu11brick online painting false pictures.

You clearly sympathise or voted for Brexit - so quite frankly you’re the mug. Research shows that people prefer the European migrants to those from further afield. Which is what you’ve voted for Now suck it up. And stop believe the **** like Farage who lied to you. Brexit made immigration worse, not better. And we can thank you and cun1s like Farrage for it.