Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[SpurMeUp]

Obvious to me it would happen as they are all as bad as each other

How can anyone possibly make a judgement when they have been in power a few weeks?

You know what is more interesting? How political affiliation is no different to football support. The whingeing from those who support a different political team right now is hilarious. You would think that people were able to step out of base-level human in-groups to see the bigger picture. But everything I read in this thread speaks to the polarised nature of political support.

 

[glasgowspur]

Give exact examples of degrowth, not just sound bites. What are you suggesting exactly?



As though anyone would disagree. What are you suggesting?

The answes to those are unpalatable, so we ignore it and pretend we are a caring species.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Give exact examples of degrowth, not just sound bites. What are you suggesting exactly?



As though anyone would disagree. What are you suggesting?

Enforcing a maximum 28 hour working week is the start. Then 21 after a while. Paired with UBI.

Introduction of circular economy - banning the extraction or import of certain raw materials. Banned planned obsolescence and companies that engage in that.

And then incentives to focus employment on essential areas, rather than luxuries (a proper industrial strategy)

Those sort of things.

 

[Kompakted]

How can anyone possibly make a judgement when they have been in power a few weeks?

You know what is more interesting? How political affiliation is no different to football support. The whingeing from those who support a different political team right now is hilarious. You would think that people were able to step out of base-level human in-groups to see the bigger picture. But everything I read in this thread speaks to the polarised nature of political support.

Of course nobody is making a final judgement, but just as with a new starter that comes in and is already taking the tinkle and acting up in his first week the first impressions aren't good and have largely dissolved any good will and patience. It is quite extraordinary to see the current press frenzy. Even stuff like the civil service clearly being up in arms about Sue Gray's influence (and pay packet) and constantly leaking to the press in a similar manner to what happened under Johnson is crazy.

Sue Gray in particular is one to watch. Seems to be Starmer's Dominic Cummings - someone he clearly has put complete faith in to do the real leg work of government on his behalf, someone who seems to have a very high opinion of themselves and isn't afraid to make enemies and ultimately someone I feel that in the end will likely butt heads with cabinet and bring about no end of headaches for the regime.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Of course nobody is making a final judgement, but just as with a new starter that comes in and is already taking the tinkle and acting up in his first week the first impressions aren't good and have largely dissolved any good will and patience. It is quite extraordinary to see the current press frenzy. Even stuff like the civil service clearly being up in arms about Sue Gray's influence (and pay packet) and constantly leaking to the press in a similar manner to what happened under Johnson is crazy.

Sue Gray in particular is one to watch. Seems to be Starmer's Dominic Cummings - someone he clearly has put complete faith in to do the real leg work of government on his behalf, someone who seems to have a very high opinion of themselves and isn't afraid to make enemies and ultimately someone I feel that in the end will likely butt heads with cabinet and bring about no end of headaches for the regime.

The 'evil counsellor' narrative is as old as civilisation.

Sometimes leaders use it to deflect blame from them, to have a disposable fall guy (Cummings, Maddelson, Campbell).

Sometimes they are just an easy target for political enemies because they dont have a voice to defend themselves.

I suspect we are seeing the latter here

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

taking the tinkle and acting up in his first week the first impressions aren't good and have largely dissolved any good will and patience. It is quite extraordinary to see the current press frenzy. Even stuff like the civil service clearly being up in arms about Sue Gray's influence (and pay packet) and constantly leaking to the press in a similar manner to what happened under Johnson is crazy.

Jeez....this just like the Ange gonads.

'dissolved any goodwill and patience'...

Will anyone, anytime soon, have the space to breath, to accomplish anything?

Burn it all down and start over?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Of course nobody is making a final judgement, but just as with a new starter that comes in and is already taking the tinkle and acting up in his first week the first impressions aren't good and have largely dissolved any good will and patience.

The analogy would be more accurate if it were a Managing Director and you'd opposed their appointment prior. And now you're telling everyone you were right. A form of confirmation bias. Or did you vote for Labour?

It is quite extraordinary to see the current press frenzy. Even stuff like the civil service clearly being up in arms about Sue Gray's influence (and pay packet) and constantly leaking to the press in a similar manner to what happened under Johnson is crazy.

Sue Gray in particular is one to watch. Seems to be Starmer's Dominic Cummings - someone he clearly has put complete faith in to do the real leg work of government on his behalf, someone who seems to have a very high opinion of themselves and isn't afraid to make enemies and ultimately someone I feel that in the end will likely butt heads with cabinet and bring about no end of headaches for the regime.

Most of our traditional press has a similar bias whether individual journalists or owners of the paper who dictate tone. And they will undermine as much as possible. It will build and build. Is any of it productive or meaningful? Not to me. I ignore it. But then I also found most of the faf around Johnson to be similar. Politics is entertainment. A soap for middle-aged and older folks to follow. Most reporting is more akin to gossiping, than anything pragmatic.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Enforcing a maximum 28 hour working week is the start. Then 21 after a while. Paired with UBI.

Would be extremely difficult to impose on a developed economy. May be it could be achieved over a number of years, taking a hour off each year.

What would you do about people who wanted to work more?

What would you do about staff shortages? Not enough nurses or Ambulance drivers, waiters, kitchen staff etc?
This would be further exacerbated by UBI, which according to you would give people who didn't want to work, all the money they needed to live a decent life. Why would you work then?

Introduction of circular economy - banning the extraction or import of certain raw materials. Banned planned obsolescence and companies that engage in that.

How you police this? If raw materials are mined responsibly are they banned too? Would you be okay with no more mobile phones etc? Real de-growth?

And then incentives to focus employment on essential areas, rather than luxuries (a proper industrial strategy)

Those sort of things.

What are 'essential' areas? Would things like football be luxury? Or just rowing for example?

 

[markysimmo]

How can anyone possibly make a judgement when they have been in power a few weeks?

You know what is more interesting? How political affiliation is no different to football support. The whingeing from those who support a different political team right now is hilarious. You would think that people were able to step out of base-level human in-groups to see the bigger picture. But everything I read in this thread speaks to the polarised nature of political support.

Within a few months they have shown they are are dodgy and corrupt as the Tories and I bet we don't even know the half yet
All in for themselves and on the take for freebies

 

[SpurMeUp]

Within a few months they have shown they are are dodgy and corrupt as the Tories and I bet we don't even know the half yet
All in for themselves and on the take for freebies

Hehe...awaits Posters flagging up a set of clothes and some football tickets not being the same as millions or billions of pounds worth of contracts given to pals.

And would you say a free outfit and some tickets to a sporting event equals "corruption" something you wouldn't accept yourself at work? Or is your bias, and ingroup affecting your judgment?

 

[Kompakted]

The analogy would be more accurate if it were a Managing Director and you'd opposed their appointment prior. And now you're telling everyone you were right. A form of confirmation bias. Or did you vote for Labour?



Most of our traditional press has a similar bias whether individual journalists or owners of the paper who dictate tone. And they will undermine as much as possible. It will build and build. Is any of it productive or meaningful? Not to me. I ignore it. But then I also found most of the faf around Johnson to be similar. Politics is entertainment. A soap for middle-aged and older folks to follow. Most reporting is more akin to gossiping, than anything pragmatic.

I didn't vote Labour. I haven't since 2010 and it would take a lot for me to return my vote. The only time I voted Tory on the other hand was 2019. But thar was less a positive vote for them and more a "jeez Corbyn almost got in 2017, it's my patriotic duty to vote tory in the next election" if that explains the mindset anyway. I didn't vote at all in 2024 and it would take a lot for me to be tempted back to the ballot box. Our politicians are a special breed of charlatans and deviants. Every last one of them.

 

[Muttley]

How can anyone possibly make a judgement when they have been in power a few weeks?

You know what is more interesting? How political affiliation is no different to football support. The whingeing from those who support a different political team right now is hilarious. You would think that people were able to step out of base-level human in-groups to see the bigger picture. But everything I read in this thread speaks to the polarised nature of political support.

What hasn't changed is what Dominic Cummins said in his interview to Laura Kunesberg a few years back. He basically said there were only a minority of people in Whitehall that had any substance about them. When pushed on this he then said about 3 dozen, and supported his argument sharing that they are the only true subject matter experts on these really important policies that shape our country. They are the ones that bother to work with facts, read the policy documents and use quantitative and qualitative inputs to propose change.

That just reminded me of what a friend had told me about his time at TFL and his many meetings with Boris. As the big boss, the Mayor of London, Boris would turn up to incredibly important meetings late. He hadn't read anything that had been sent to him as pre-reading and he sat there most of the meetings just making people laugh. He'd just use gut instincts to support decisions that the TFL team were proposing.

So what do we do with empty shells like this in our country? Obviously, we make them PM, and we get the intelligent people like Cummins to coach them to say "35 New Hospitals" and "Get Brexit Done" knowing that lots of the members of the public are gullible and fall for the marketing campaign over the substance of the debate.

I used to take the mickey out of my US colleagues at work for having no intelligent politicians. I daren't now as our country has headed the same direction as US politics. They're mostly actors building their own personal brand.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Would be extremely difficult to impose on a developed economy. May be it could be achieved over a number of years, taking a hour off each year.

What would you do about people who wanted to work more?

What would you do about staff shortages? Not enough nurses or Ambulance drivers, waiters, kitchen staff etc?
This would be further exacerbated by UBI, which according to you would give people who didn't want to work, all the money they needed to live a decent life. Why would you work then?


How you police this? If raw materials are mined responsibly are they banned too? Would you be okay with no more mobile phones etc? Real de-growth?



What are 'essential' areas? Would things like football be luxury? Or just rowing for example?

It would just be illegal under labour protection laws to work more. Most places already have them, just set at higher numbers at the moment. Its primarily about redistributing the essential work that is there, while reducing the overall net work done.

The ban would be on virgin materials. So e.g. no new plastics, only recycled ones can be used. Want a new mobile, trade in an old one + other old electronics for dismantling and reuse. That kind of thing.

And essentials would be healthcare, education, transport, agriculture, energy, maintenance of buildings and infrastructure, arts and leisure. They'd be the key priorities for the workforce. Everything else would make do with whatever spare hours people want to contribute afterwards.

 

[spurspinter1]

Our leaders speech


1) fudge the pensioners
2) 14 years blah blah
3) You’re all far right thugs, unless you’re Muslim
4) 22BN hole that we can’t prove
5) Release the Sausages.

What an inspiration.

Any direct quotes that back up point 3? If not, a simple "No I was just being overly emotional" will suffice.

I feel like I'd have heard more about if Starmer had something as outlandish as that, not being of the Islamic faith himself he'd by proxy also be outing himself as a far right thug.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Any direct quotes that back up point 3? If not, a simple "No I was just being overly emotional" will suffice.

I feel like I'd have heard more about if Starmer had something as outlandish as that, not being of the Islamic faith himself he'd by proxy also be outing himself as a far right thug.

Wait till he fatwas himself and his jewish wife and children. You'll have been told

 

[Kompakted]

What hasn't changed is what Dominic Cummins said in his interview to Laura Kunesberg a few years back. He basically said there were only a minority of people in Whitehall that had any substance about them. When pushed on this he then said about 3 dozen, and supported his argument sharing that they are the only true subject matter experts on these really important policies that shape our country. They are the ones that bother to work with facts, read the policy documents and use quantitative and qualitative inputs to propose change.

That just reminded me of what a friend had told me about his time at TFL and his many meetings with Boris. As the big boss, the Mayor of London, Boris would turn up to incredibly important meetings late. He hadn't read anything that had been sent to him as pre-reading and he sat there most of the meetings just making people laugh. He'd just use gut instincts to support decisions that the TFL team were proposing.

So what do we do with empty shells like this in our country? Obviously, we make them PM, and we get the intelligent people like Cummins to coach them to say "35 New Hospitals" and "Get Brexit Done" knowing that lots of the members of the public are gullible and fall for the marketing campaign over the substance of the debate.

I used to take the mickey out of my US colleagues at work for having no intelligent politicians. I daren't now as our country has headed the same direction as US politics. They're mostly actors building their own personal brand.

Just on the bit of turning up to meetings late and not being in the detail of anything- this is no different to any senior leader of a large organisation and will be no different to how Starmer or any other PM/CEO likely acts. Everyone likes to think their meetings are important, but when you're the PM you'll be back to back with "vitally important" meetings and calls all day. You'll have multiple conflicts in your diary and I imagine you'll have to drop out of what may seem to advisors as hugely important discussions, say for example to take a phone call from the US president on military escalation in the middle east. I believe Cummings was particularly infuriated about Johnson leaving a Covid meeting to take such a phone call but on a complex technical issue a senior leader will lean on SMEs to handle it and it may overall have been wiser to keep the relationship with the US president ticking along rather than be involved in the detail of a complex health issue where you're going to rely on the expert recommendations anyway. The worst trait of a senior leader is micro management. You become a bottle-neck because you want to see everything and be across the detail of everything.

So while Johnson had his flaws, I don't buy the stuff about meetings and being in the detail as being 2 of them.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Loving all the false equivalence arguments on here. That is one of the oldest tactics going. Clearly, some have forgotten just how corrupt the Tories were, paying out tens of millions of pounds to their mates and donors for PPE that either did not exist or was not fit for purpose. That is just the corruption relating to the covid response, There were also dodgy land deals to property developers and all the rest.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Loving all the false equivalence arguments on here. That is one of the oldest tactics going. Clearly, some have forgotten just how corrupt the Tories were, paying out tens of millions of pounds to their mates and donors for PPE that either did not exist or was not fit for purpose. That is just the corruption relating to the covid response, There were also dodgy land deals to property developers and all the rest.

They even gave our last 40 years of rain away to US equity firms (the only privatised water system in the world)!

 

[parklane1]

Obvious to me it would happen as they are all as bad as each other

Is the righ t answer.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Israel going full Russia now and about to invade a 3rd neighbouring country.

If anyone ever suggestion proportional representation is a good idea, the reponse 'mid-2020s Israel' should kill any argument cold. Keep fascists away from power.