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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

johnola said:
Just perhaps that narrative that leaving the EU was only about gammon faced racists was wrong.

Many people objected to the deeply protectionist and overbearing democratic response of the EU.

Going back into the global swim lane where we have historically been, is a natural consequence of Brexit. Broadly speaking, just as aftershocks cause problems, opportunities arise.

But the world is very welcome to come to these shores, particularly so right now.
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By mentioning the Sun, your reaction was not everyone was a gammon-faced racist who voted for Brexit!? :D I see the logic and think its quite funny.

The truth is, our national print press - not just he Sun - really shaped our image of the EU over many decades. When newspapers were fundamental. Think of how much adverts in papers cost. We had year after year of negative stories about Europe. Did papers report on the dull trade deals or technical laws on air or water quality? Not only was this news dull when jingoistic stories about the EU were so much more compelling to readers, on top of that the owners of these newspapers also had a personal agenda against the EU. Mainly because their power and influence was benign within the EU. And that is why most moguls own papers, it is to be able to help shape opinion and exert influence on politics.

I'm not sure what the global swimming lane is? But we are a nation built on trade (and exploitation). All of our grand buildings and halycon days were built on global trade. Now, we are going into the slow lane. The periphery. When for the past 500 years we've been a bastion of global trade. EU nations lost empires and formed the EU. It gave countries who were "de-growing" to coin a phrase :) new global strength. The ability to set standards and hold people to it. Something the people in Ukraine appreciate now.

It is time to question the prevailing myths now. Such as the EU being protectionist or having an "overbearing democratic response". What does that even mean? We can bin-off the red tape and bureaucracy myth now, as we've seen massive increases in paperwork post-Brexit. We can sumise we are not getting the 350m a week for the NHS. We can conclude that immigration won't be controlled by leaving the EU. What are you clinging onto here? Is it just being old and wishing to pull up the draw bridge? Something that happens to people as they age - to wish to get cosy at home with your own? It is certainly not rational. :)
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Yes. Did you read @Finney Is Back post a couple of pages back? He outlined his company paid tax here and is now moving to the EU. Most companies are not massive corporate entities with offshore legal structures. And even if they are, they are paying UK wages with national insurance (a tax), using UK companies to service them (who do pay taxes), and they will be paying council taxes/rates. These companies that have moved are a significant loss. The really funny thing is, the way we make up for it, the one thing the UK uses to grow its economy - its immigration which is higher than ever. The very thing Brexit was supposed to stop :D
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So many big companies pay their tax in other countries
So many senior employees do too
I used to have a Swiss chief exec who travelled to the Uk every other week
It’s normal
Hell Starbucks didn’t pay tax and they are a fraction of the size of these companies
 
SpurMeUp said:
By mentioning the Sun, your reaction was not everyone was a gammon-faced racist who voted for Brexit!? :D I see the logic and think its quite funny.

The truth is, our national print press - not just he Sun - really shaped our image of the EU over many decades. When newspapers were fundamental. Think of how much adverts in papers cost. We had year after year of negative stories about Europe. Did papers report on the dull trade deals or technical laws on air or water quality? Not only was this news dull when jingoistic stories about the EU were so much more compelling to readers, on top of that the owners of these newspapers also had a personal agenda against the EU. Mainly because their power and influence was benign within the EU. And that is why most moguls own papers, it is to be able to help shape opinion and exert influence on politics.

I'm not sure what the global swimming lane is? But we are a nation built on trade (and exploitation). All of our grand buildings and halycon days were built on global trade. Now, we are going into the slow lane. The periphery. When for the past 500 years we've been a bastion of global trade. EU nations lost empires and formed the EU. It gave countries who were "de-growing" to coin a phrase :) new global strength. The ability to set standards and hold people to it. Something the people in Ukraine appreciate now.

It is time to question the prevailing myths now. Such as the EU being protectionist or having an "overbearing democratic response". What does that even mean? We can bin-off the red tape and bureaucracy myth now, as we've seen massive increases in paperwork post-Brexit. We can sumise we are not getting the 350m a week for the NHS. We can conclude that immigration won't be controlled by leaving the EU. What are you clinging onto here? Is it just being old and wishing to pull up the draw bridge? Something that happens to people as they age - to wish to get cosy at home with your own? It is certainly not rational. :)
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The EU is also crippling some countries right now
Pop over to Poland and ask what they think of the EU
I work for a very large danish company and we look after 20 of the world top 30 banks. So I travel a lot
The EU now has left a really mixed view point everywhere I go
Being out means I queue up now at airports which is a pain
 
Bedfordspurs said:
The EU is also crippling some countries right now
Pop over to Poland and ask what they think of the EU
I work for a very large danish company and we look after 20 of the world top 30 banks. So I travel a lot
The EU now has left a really mixed view point everywhere I go
Being out means I queue up now at airports which is a pain
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Maybe. A quick google search suggests 90% support? https://www.statista.com/statistics/957570/poland-attitude-towards-eu-membership/ maybe its not correct.

I do know that Brexit has done a lot to bolster EU faith amongst member nations. Beforehand many nations were skeptical. But the mess we've made of Brexit has made us a bit of a laughingstock internationally. We were the go-to nation for non-EU countries to have a European presence. Needless to say, those days are gone.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Maybe. A quick google search suggests 90% support? https://www.statista.com/statistics/957570/poland-attitude-towards-eu-membership/ maybe its not correct.

I do know that Brexit has done a lot to bolster EU faith amongst member nations. Beforehand many nations were skeptical. But the mess we've made of Brexit has made us a bit of a laughingstock internationally. We were the go-to nation for non-EU countries to have a European presence. Needless to say, those days are gone.
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It’s done the exact opposite
Most countries i travel too don’t like the fact they have to support other countries specially post Covid
I’d suggest people travel more and read less maybe… google isn’t the answer and you’re an educated guy.
I do agree that what we have done has opened people’s eyes to what can happen but that includes the good and bad as they see it

People here believe we’re the only ones having food inflation for example. It’s double digits everywhere and more on lots of countries. No one really mentions that. And I mean EU countries too. I have a good budget of around 500M euros and it’s scarily low now for the increases caused by Covid and now Russia. That’s had a huge knock on, on everything but we blame Brexit as the single cause in many cases, rather than it being a contributing factor (it hasn’t helped)
The only country I’ve been too who seem to be ok with everything at the moment is Switzerland
 
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Bedfordspurs said:
It’s done the exact opposite
Most countries i travel too don’t like the fact they have to support other countries specially post Covid
I’d suggest people travel more and read less maybe… google isn’t the answer and you’re an educated guy.
I do agree that what we have done has opened people’s eyes to what can happen but that includes the good and bad as they see it

People here believe we’re the only ones having food inflation for example. It’s double digits everywhere and more on lots of countries. No one really mentions that. And I mean EU countries too. I have a good budget of around 500M euros and it’s scarily low now for the increases caused by Covid and now Russia. That’s had a huge knock on, on everything but we blame Brexit as the single cause in many cases, rather than it being a contributing factor (it hasn’t helped)
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What good?

Listen I do agree. Brexit takes the brunt of the blame in the UK, and actually, its impact is not as profound as I and others suggest. There are all these other factors - war, covid, printing money and turning the QE taps off. But there is no doubt the UK has looked a complete shambles post Brexit. One thing you can certainly hang solely on Brexit is the state of our politics. We've had unelected PM after unelected PM. Each undermined by Brexit, each worse than the last incumbent. Hopefully, that has changed now. But the issue is Brexit is impossible to deliver in the way it was promised. There isn't cake from leaving the EU, just a slow, gradual decline of the UK. Lost academic funding and collaboration, lost trade, international presence etc etc. I never thought the effects would be felt overnight, but gradually. A gradual move from the center to the periphery for the UK. And I could take that if we were like Switzerland or the Nordic nations. But we are still getting massive immigration, and we're undermining our national services with less funding available while we add net .5m people.

It is time to be grown up about this, as our government are trying to find answers. Trying to implement a Swiss-like setup to undo some of the biggest issues.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
What good?

Listen I do agree. Brexit takes the brunt of the blame in the UK, and actually, its impact is not as profound as I and others suggest. There are all these other factors - war, covid, printing money and turning the taps off. But there is no doubt the UK has looked a complete shambles post Brexit. One thing you can certainly hang solely on Brexit is the state of our politics. We've had unelected PM after unelected PM. Each undermined by Brexit, each worse than the last incumbent. Hopefully, that has changed now. But the issue is Brexit is impossible to deliver in the way it was promised. There isn't cake from leaving the EU, just a slow, gradual decline of the UK. Lost academic funding and collaboration, lost trade, international presence etc etc. I never thought the effects would be felt overnight, but gradually. A gradual move from the center to the periphery for the UK. And I could take that if we were like Switzerland or the Nordic nations. But we are still getting massive immigration, and we're undermining our national services with less funding available while we add net .5m people.

It is time to be grown up about this, as our government are trying to find answers. Trying to implement a Swiss-like setup to undo some of the biggest issues.
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People see us having the opportunity to control things without others controlling us
That’s good in many eyes looking in
I personally can’t say what’s good as it’s not been great for me. Hasn’t been as bad as some have been affected and the biggest issue I have is queues at airports
But if verdict highlights other failings in the UK I think it’s a good thing. People know what has happened and also more and more people are seeking the Ruth and not taking it in face value as it’s on Facebook or the sun. That’s great but hasn’t filtered down to enough people
I’m pro immigration too so again I see that as a positive personally. I know plenty of Brexit gammons who see anyone as a raider on their wealth whisky they sit in the pub complaining everything has got more expensive, wearing their sweatshop trainers and fake stone island tops then go for a curry that again is more expensive than it was before
And I’ll add, I voted for Brexit.
The reason… simple
JPMC and Bank of America sent letters to their Uk staff saying if you vote for Brexit and it happens we will close your offices and you will lose your jobs. American companies interfering with threats. So I voted to leave
A good Italian friend of mine who lived in Bedford was fudging distraught and felt everyone was persecuting him. He lefts Bedford about 12 weeks later and moved back home
I love Europe. I love travel and have plenty of friends in Europe. I’ve never been political. I’ve always voted for who is in power as year on year my money and work has got better and so has my standard of living so I had no cause to complain
That’s changed…. A lot actually in the last 3 years as I did a government contract and I saw the shambles in the civil service. My wife also is an NHS manager and is appealing paid with awful working conditions.
We won’t be voting conservatives again
I follow and contribute to the Good Law Project which I really admire as they unlock the brick that goes in with a government that’s ungoverned
 
@Bedfordspurs the biggest issued I've had with Brexit is what it has done to our government (including civil service). Under New Labor I think there was some headway made in improving how civil services functioned. But it was just a start. It takes time to change such ingrained institutions. But since 2016, fuk me, we have been a shambles. When PMs and Ministers change every few months, and when Ministries have to adapt to an unknown Brexit (that is still being defined), it puts these institutions on hold. So we've gone backward in governmental terms. And the waste of taxpayers' money is real as civil servants wait for direction. We both have insights into the failings in this side of government, and there are many ways to improve efficiency and value.

I'll never blame Brexit on voters, the arguments and broad sentiment were compelling. Until you pulled apart the detail. But even then it wasn't totally clear as we could have had a Norway-like Brexit - totally different to what we have now. Bank of America and other banks have moved jobs to Dublin, Amsterdam, France and Germany. I am guessing that if the vote were today maybe you'd abstain or think differently about it. No one but no one actually knew exactly how it would unfold. But now we can see that our kids will have less as a result. And we gain nothing of note back. Do we say "oh well, never mind", or do we fix it?
 
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SpurMeUp said:
@Bedfordspurs the biggest issued I've had with Brexit is what it has done to our government (including civil service). Under New Labor I think there was some headway made in improving how civil services functioned. But it was just a start. It takes time to change such ingrained institutions. But since 2016, fuk me, we have been a shambles. When PMs and Ministers change every few months, and when Ministries have to adapt to an unknown Brexit (that is still being defined), it puts these institutions on hold. So we've gone backward in governmental terms. And the waste of taxpayers' money is real as civil servants wait for direction. We both have insights into the failings in this side of government, and there are many ways to improve efficiency and value.

I'll never blame Brexit on voters, the arguments and broad sentiment were compelling. Until you pulled apart the detail. But even then it wasn't totally clear as we could have had a Norway-like Brexit - totally different to what we have now. Bank of America and other banks have moved jobs to Dublin, Amsterdam, France and Germany. I am guessing that if the vote were today maybe you'd abstain or think differently about it. No one but no one actually knew exactly how it would unfold. But now we can see that our kids will have less as a result. And we gain nothing of note back. Do we say "oh well, never mind", or do we fix it?
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Who knows
We can roll the dice and do something different but it’s a first for many things
 
Gutter Boy said:
Do Tescos have highly skilled roles that no current citizen could do? Not about that kid at all (its the corporate sponsorship model im critiqing), just that Tescos aren't exactly a university or EPL club that needs 'global talent'.
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Tesco's would have a need for top tech talent, top legal talent, top marketing talent and top economists amongst many, many other skills....
 
johnola said:
Just perhaps that narrative that leaving the EU was only about gammon faced racists was wrong.

Many people objected to the deeply protectionist and overbearing democratic response of the EU.

Going back into the global swim lane where we have historically been, is a natural consequence of Brexit. Broadly speaking, just as aftershocks cause problems, opportunities arise.

But the world is very welcome to come to these shores, particularly so right now.
Click to expand...
I'm interested to hear what these opportunities are to be honest. The EU have more favourable trading deals with non EU nations than we can achieve as a standalone entity.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
You believe these companies that left and their big earners paid tax here?
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Absolutely.... Many large companies were domiciled and paid taxes here and have now left. Financial services companies have also had to move a portion of staff out of the UK into the EU (I know several very high salaried hedge fund and investment bank traders who have (reluctantly) moved to an EU country where their role has been relocated to in the last couple of years, the problem being that there aren't equivalent new roles being created here.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
So many big companies pay their tax in other countries
So many senior employees do too
I used to have a Swiss chief exec who travelled to the Uk every other week
It’s normal
Hell Starbucks didn’t pay tax and they are a fraction of the size of these companies
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For every multinational paying their tax in another country there was also one paying it here.... The number of those paying the tax here is sadly reducing. It is really, really very hard to do business in the UK at present unless a large majority of your business is with the UK. It is difficult to have a good economy when you are restricting businesses who are domiciled in your country to only be able to do business with a relatively small part of the World. I doubt a single foreign business would ever choose to setup or relocate here for the duration of this Brexit deal and that will be combined with several existing UK domiciled businesses relocating.
 
SpurMeUp said:
@Bedfordspurs the biggest issued I've had with Brexit is what it has done to our government (including civil service). Under New Labor I think there was some headway made in improving how civil services functioned. But it was just a start. It takes time to change such ingrained institutions. But since 2016, fuk me, we have been a shambles. When PMs and Ministers change every few months, and when Ministries have to adapt to an unknown Brexit (that is still being defined), it puts these institutions on hold. So we've gone backward in governmental terms. And the waste of taxpayers' money is real as civil servants wait for direction. We both have insights into the failings in this side of government, and there are many ways to improve efficiency and value.

I'll never blame Brexit on voters, the arguments and broad sentiment were compelling. Until you pulled apart the detail. But even then it wasn't totally clear as we could have had a Norway-like Brexit - totally different to what we have now. Bank of America and other banks have moved jobs to Dublin, Amsterdam, France and Germany. I am guessing that if the vote were today maybe you'd abstain or think differently about it. No one but no one actually knew exactly how it would unfold. But now we can see that our kids will have less as a result. And we gain nothing of note back. Do we say "oh well, never mind", or do we fix it?
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What would've been the point of a Norway style Brexit though?.... It was significantly worse than the deal we already had... We had the VERY BEST deal in the EU. Our our currency, able to set our own interest rates and a veto. Not a single other country in Europe had that brilliant deal. This deal or any future deal that we negotiate will not be anywhere near as good as that deal. I suspect we'll end up back in the EU in a sevaral decades' time. However we'll be in as a standard member, adopting the Euro.
 
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