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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

thfcsteff said:
You are now using the ‘woke’ trampoline.
I could not be further from ‘woke’ or whatever fancy phrase you’re using.
This is a very simple question/issue regarding what you wrote.
Again…you suggested a Chinese approach to extremism.
Given that the context of discussion was centered around Muslim extremists, it was fair to conclude that you were suggesting a ‘Chinese approach’ to the matter.
It was therefore fair to conclude that you were suggesting a ‘camps’ style method.
Some found that unpalatable.
You appeared to flip it into an ‘anti-China’ reaction.
Again, this has nothing to do with ‘woke doctrines’ or anything else you’ve cooked up.
This is simple.
Do you think the Chinese approach to extremists i.e. camps, is something which should be investigated as a potential ‘resource’ or not?
If you do, then I think you are so far beyond wrong it ends our conversation.
I am allowed to think that just as you are allowed to say what you said.
No-one is ‘dictating that people can not even talk about or discuss things’…consider this the discussion.
Perhaps you just didn’t like how it all looked when broken down. Understandable. I generally enjoy both your posts and the thought which goes into them, which made this one (and the subsequent apparent double-down) odd.

I remain baffled as to how you see an ‘anti-Chinese’ thing out of the comments made. The point being discussed was very specific to one element of what they’re doing, and any further comments with regards to their politics would be a whole new thread.

I am also intrigued by your comments about ‘government structures’. I think many here know there are significant differences. What was your point in saying this (not trying to be rude, trying to understand)?

I am interested to know where you have been called a ‘bigot’ or ‘chased out of town’? I appear to be missing something.
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Okay. This is dull. But you throw around spurious accusations I have to respond to. Re-read what I wrote. I have been crystal clear that I do not endorse Chinese imprisonment of innocent people. Therefore high-horse condemnation, might be seen as woke-like. Read what is there. Even ignore it if you will (you ignored me saying I don't endorse Chinese imprisonment of innocent Muslims). But why throw around accusations when this point has been made and made over and over?

Multiple times I've written that I don't believe Chinese imprisonment is right, but you ask "Do you think the Chinese approach to extremists...is something to be investigated". You are obviously trying to get a reaction by ignoring my previous posts. In the original post, I wrote that a subtler form of re-education was worth discussing. And guess what, in the UK there is Prevent which is just that. You ignored this while on a quest for hysterical rightness. You might not like the term woke but one can understand how people identify such a thing, when you can't even discuss something without being hunted down for not being politically correct.

Re. government structures, you/one is not normally aware that you live under a set of societal structures that influence you life. Liberal economic, democratic structures have all sorts of impacts on how people live day to day. When you extricate yourself from this model of society and live under a different setup, you see how superstructures affect the way people interact with each other. Liberal Democratic systems are without doubt the best system anyone has come up with so far, but they also have drawbacks. Democracy encourages lowest common denominator policies, is often slow to act (or doesn't act if things are not in a powerful groups interests). Liberal economics has huge implications for ethics in society, and emphasise success measured in wealth. These are not a given, they are imposed somewhat by a good (but not perfect) system.
 
scaramanga said:
Do you think brighter kinds and low IQ kids should all be in the same class?
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No. As i said i don't mind grammar schools for secondary education. Primary different pupils may need different attention. But it shouldn't be based on how much money their parents have.
 
SpurMeUp said:
I'm not sure that is fair as I was talking about different groups in that post "I know some Muslims are, but this has to be a cornerstone and 100% clear." I am all for moderate Islam. I respect its beliefs and doctrines.
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you see that’s another ridiculous post, who are ‘the Muslims’ that are not condemning it?

How can ‘the Muslims’ be more clear that they 100% condemn it?

If Islamic terrorism occurs is it because ‘the Muslims’ have not condemned it enough? Could there maybe another reason?

and if so:

Are “white people” condemning far right extremists? Are they doing it 100%

if not when far right extremism’s occurs should we blame all ‘white peoples’ for not condemning it enough?
 
Rorschach said:
Well yes, but do they? I think many of the accusations being levelled against Muslims could equally be applied to other groups and should be frankly.
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I am not sure there is a link between white supremacy and Christianity in the UK. If there is, of course, it should be broken.
 
scaramanga said:
How do you dissect Shakespearian prose when half the class can't read or write?

How do you teach quadratic equations to kids that can't even use long division?
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They should stop teaching Shakespeare. It is boring old brick. Something more interesting would grab their attention.
 
DTA said:
you see that’s another ridiculous post, who are ‘the Muslims’ that are not condemning it?

How can ‘the Muslims’ be more clear that they 100% condemn it?

If Islamic terrorism occurs is it because ‘the Muslims’ have not condemned it enough? Could there maybe another reason?

and if so:

Are “white people” condemning far right extremists? Are they doing it 100%

if not when far right extremism’s occurs should we blame all ‘white peoples’ for not condemning it enough?
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You're putting words into my mouth. I have observed some Muslim groups being active in cutting off and shunning forms of Islam that preach hate. I greatly respect these people as they can see that this is a crucial thing to do, its proactive and helpful. They don't have to do it. No one is forcing them to do this, but they understand why its important.
 
SpurMeUp said:
I'm not sure that is fair as I was talking about different groups in that post "I know some Muslims are, but this has to be a cornerstone and 100% clear." I am all for moderate Islam. I respect its beliefs and doctrines.
Click to expand...

Please tell me what you meant when you said Islam needs to condemn it so I understand it not to be you saying we all need to apologise for the actions of someone we aren't.
 
SpurMeUp said:
You're putting words into my mouth. I have observed some Muslim groups being active in cutting off and shunning forms of Islam that preach hate. I greatly respect these people as they can see that this is a crucial thing to do, its proactive and helpful. They don't have to do it. No one is forcing them to do this, but they understand why its important.
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Which groups have not condemned it that you think should? Genuine question.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Okay. This is dull. But you throw around spurious accusations I have to respond to. Re-read what I wrote. I have been crystal clear that I do not endorse Chinese imprisonment of innocent people. Therefore high-horse condemnation, might be seen as woke-like. Read what is there. Even ignore it if you will (you ignored me saying I don't endorse Chinese imprisonment of innocent Muslims). But why throw around accusations when this point has been made and made over and over?

Multiple times I've written that I don't believe Chinese imprisonment is right, but you ask "Do you think the Chinese approach to extremists...is something to be investigated". You are obviously trying to get a reaction by ignoring my previous posts. In the original post, I wrote that a subtler form of re-education was worth discussing. And guess what, in the UK there is Prevent which is just that. You ignored this while on a quest for hysterical rightness. You might not like the term woke but one can understand how people identify such a thing, when you can't even discuss something without being hunted down for not being politically correct.

Re. government structures, you/one is not normally aware that you live under a set of societal structures that influence you life. Liberal economic, democratic structures have all sorts of impacts on how people live day to day. When you extricate yourself from this model of society and live under a different setup, you see how superstructures affect the way people interact with each other. Liberal Democratic systems are without doubt the best system anyone has come up with so far, but they also have drawbacks. Democracy encourages lowest common denominator policies, is often slow to act (or doesn't act if things are not in a powerful groups interests). Liberal economics has huge implications for ethics in society, and emphasis success measured in wealth. These are not a given, they are imposed somewhat by a good (but not perfect) system.
Click to expand...

Not dull enough for you to feel persecuted.
There’s an irony here somewhere.

Have a good day mate.
 
scaramanga said:
Do you think brighter kinds and low IQ kids should all be in the same class?
Click to expand...

this actually complicated, until I was about 14 I was a bit of a shît, may have possibly been heading to prison if I continued down that path, was predicted to fail most of my GCSEs. But at that point something clicked I ended up with the best GCSE results in my school (it was a shït school so maybe not that impressive) went on to college and university, and now run three (small) businesses, pay tax etc etc

So if I was written off at 14 what would that have meant?
 
SpurMeUp said:
While there may be some groups who are silently ambivalent I prefer to see it in the opposite way: the positive forward thinking groups who make a point of actively condemning radical Islam whenever the subject arises.
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who are the ambivalent groups of ‘Muslims’ do they have a voice? Again genuine question?
 
@SpurMeUp

A fresh attempt to understand exactly what you’re saying, given that the last one ended up with you feeling set-upon.

What are your thoughts on tackling radical terrorism?
Do your opinions on method differ according to who/what group the radical terrorist belongs to?
What measures would you like to see taken by governments in western countries?
 
DTA said:
who are the ambivalent groups of ‘Muslims’ do they have a voice? Again genuine question?
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I linked to a study related to it. Here's the abstract:

Abstract
This study analyzed the contents of three of the most popular Arabic-language online message boards regarding the attacks of September 11, 2001 on the United States. Although terrorists claimed that the attacks were committed in the name of Islam, those who posted messages on all three forums rejected this claim. More than 43% of the messages condemned the attacks as a criminal act of terrorism that contradicts the core teachings of Islam. Some 30% saw some justification behind the attacks, even if they felt sorry for the victims and their families. However, those participants viewed the attacks as a political, rather than a religious, issue.


Muslim groups have a powerful voice. They don't need to act, they can keep themselves to themselves and I respect that. It is thorny subject and I wouldn't criticise anyone for staying out the firing line. But some choose to assert things in a positive way. They are courageous and I have huge respect for them.
 
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