Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[LutonSpurs]

Can you name a home grown terrorist who was radicalised in a mosque or religious school?

 

[DTA]

Lol. You are the one trying to say there isn't an issue with islam and integration and acceptance of western values. There may be with other religions but catholic terrorism, sikh terrorism, budhist terrorism... isn't a major issue in the uk. Islamic terrorism is. You may not want to face that because you find it offensive/racist. But it is a problem that somehow needs to be dealt with.

I'm not calling for concentration camps or ostricising a whole religion. But we need to do something. I'd like for there to be no religious schools. Whatever the religion. And for philosophy to be taught in re classes. There is a reason that very few modern day philosophers are religious. Neil degrasse tyson put the figure at around 0.7%. Which is less than physicists.

I will answer your other points in this post later. I have to prepare for a meeting I have at 8.

 

[Lilbaz]

Can you name a home grown terrorist who was radicalised in a mosque or religious school?

I never said anyone was radicalised in a religious school.

Religious schools by there very nature segregate communities. From one faith to others. This gives a narrower view of the world and enforces belief in the child of that religion. No segregation encourages integration. A wider range of viewpoints and understanding.

 

[Lilbaz]

But ofsted have pointed out problems.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30129645

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I never said anyone was radicalised in a religious school.

Religious schools by there very nature segregate communities. From one faith to others. This gives a narrower view of the world and enforces belief in the child of that religion. No segregation encourages integration. A wider range of viewpoints and understanding.

I went to Catholic school and it is the reason for my seething hatred of all religions.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I wasn't expecting you to double down on concentration camps.

Think he wants the EU to run them haha


To be fair I think he means a sort of prison for extremists. That is what I think he means.

 

[SpurMeUp]

take out the concentration camps and possibly animal rights issues (although we are no saints),

And I have no problem with China, I think that a freer society is better and I would much prefer to live here than there despite the faults we have here.

What china are doing in those concentration camps though… that’s absolutely abhorrent and for you to use them as an example is beyond baffling.

there is said to be a million people in those camps? Are they all radicalised Muslims?

You and anyone with half a brain knows theyre not… and that’s why @LutonSpurs is afraid for his family and himself, you used china as an example to deal with radicalisation… and china’s approach is to basically put all the Muslims in concentration camps

Firstly I was talking about violent radical extremists, not normal Muslims. Secondly I didn’t ever say we should have concentration camps that is all you. Thirdly, why can’t we consider and discuss all approaches without being called bigoted?

Ironic that any mention or consideration of China elicits a black and white response without any consideration or nuanced understanding. The kind of thing that people do to Muslims - ‘they’re all the same’ etc

There isn’t political freedom in China you can’t oppose the government. But to say it’s all good or all bad and not to even understand different ways of governing is closed minded. Again, I’m not endorsing abuses of Muslims by the Chinese government for anyone who is in doubt.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Bet there will be less boats making it across the channel for the next week !!!

The lifeboat guys will be going on to the beaches in France to pick them up then I guess. Not to worry I imagine the BBC and Guardian will be handing out free tea and coffee to keep them warm.

 

[LutonSpurs]

I never said anyone was radicalised in a religious school.

Religious schools by there very nature segregate communities. From one faith to others. This gives a narrower view of the world and enforces belief in the child of that religion. No segregation encourages integration. A wider range of viewpoints and understanding.

People who are like minded and not breaking the law should be able to segregate from who ever the fudge they want.

 

[LutonSpurs]

So @SpurMeUp I assume these people will be put in to these Chinese style camps after they are convicted of a crime?

 

[Lilbaz]

People who are like minded and not breaking the law should be able to segregate from who ever the fudge they want.

Disagree totally. I've lived abroad and think it's massively important to try and understand the culture, language and tried to integrate and live by their rules, their laws. I chose to go there it was down to me to adapt not them. I even got married.

 

[SpurMeUp]

So @SpurMeUp I assume these people will be put in to these Chinese style camps after they are convicted of a crime?

I wanted to consider and understand options. It’s you who seems fixated on the Chinese. 50 Muslims were killed in New Zealand by an extremist. This is a problem that cuts across religion. Why be defensive about discussing how to tackle such atrocities?

 

[LutonSpurs]

I wanted to consider and understand options. It’s you who seems fixated on the Chinese. 50 Muslims were killed in New Zealand by an extremist. This is a problem that cuts across religion. Why be defensive about discussing how to tackle such atrocities?

You mentioned Chinese first. In regard to what they have done to the Uighurs. And you think I'm being defensive?

 

[LutonSpurs]

Disagree totally. I've lived abroad and think it's massively important to try and understand the culture, language and tried to integrate and live by their rules, their laws. I chose to go there it was down to me to adapt not them. I even got married.

But nobody has to mix with anyone as long as they obey the law. I don't understand why this is complicated. I get it's desirable but if you want to force it then you should do the same to everyone in the country.

 

[Lilbaz]

But nobody has to mix with anyone as long as they obey the law. I don't understand why this is complicated. I get it's desirable but if you want to force it then you should do the same to everyone in the country.

Erm yes that's the point. No private schools, no religious schools. Every child gets the same schooling. As much of an equal opportunity we can give.

No ghettos. No divide between rich and poor areas. Integration.

 

[SpurMeUp]

You mentioned Chinese first. In regard to what they have done to the Uighurs. And you think I'm being defensive?

i don’t have answers I’m just looking at solutions. Granted China’s way of trying to tackle extremism is misguided and unacceptable when it involves imprisonment of innocent people. We all agree. But here in the UK we have a ‘re-education’ program of our own. It’s called Prevent. It probably doesn’t prevent as much as Chinas draconian measures but it is an effort to support those who are at danger of being radicalised.

The question is what do you do as a society with people who follow hateful doctrine?

Firstly, I think Islam has to openly condemn radicals. And ensure the world understands they are not welcome or related to their community or faith. Why aren’t people disassociating Islam from radical beliefs more? I know some Muslims are, but this has to be a cornerstone and 100% clear. I’m not sure it always it at the moment.

To protect people from those that carry hate and glorify violence, we owe it to the victims to tackle and outlaw such groups as best we can.

 

[Lilbaz]

i don’t have answers I’m just looking at solutions. Granted China’s way of trying to tackle extremism is misguided and unacceptable when it involves imprisonment of innocent people. We all agree. But here in the UK we have a ‘re-education’ program of our own. It’s called Prevent. It probably doesn’t prevent as much as Chinas draconian measures but it is an effort to support those who are at danger of being radicalised.

The question is what do you do as a society with people who follow hateful doctrine?

Firstly, I think Islam has to openly condemn radicals. And ensure the world understands they are not welcome or related to their community or faith. Why aren’t people disassociating Islam from radical beliefs more? I know some Muslims are, but this has to be a cornerstone and 100% clear. I’m not sure it always it at the moment.

To protect people from those that carry hate and glorify violence, we owe it to the victims to tackle and outlaw such groups as best we can.

A lot of the more radical views come from wahhabism. Which stems and is funded by saudi arabia. You'll need to read the history of how wahhabism became so powerful in saudi and their influence since the founding of saudi arabia.

Obviously since saudi have immense control over opec and the worlds energy, it is very awkward for governments to deal with.

 

[Lilbaz]

Ofcourse this isn't helped by america being under the thumb of the military industrial complex.

 

[SpurMeUp]

A lot of the more radical views come from wahhabism. Which stems and is funded by saudi arabia. You'll need to read the history of how wahhabism became so powerful in saudi and their influence since the founding of saudi arabia.

Obviously since saudi have immense control over opec and the worlds energy, it is very awkward for governments to deal with.

Yes I've seen the Adam Curtis piece. It is one side of it. But I think the answers are to be found within communities rather than global politics. It is not just Islam remember. Probably the worst recent atrocity was a white-power radical who killed 51 innocent peaceful Muslims in New Zealand.

 

[thfcsteff]

And while I am not suggesting we do what China has done locking up people, I would like to know why if you mention China you get a slightly bigoted response. Things are not only black and white. Just as Islam is not all good or all bad, neither is China and totalitarianism. Again - so people don't get their knickers in a twist - I am not advocating doing what China does, just discussing all approaches. We have a slightly bigoted viewpoint on communist or totalitarian regimes - with some justification a lot of time as people are less free. However, we should consider different ways of governing, and not make sweeping judgments about them. To:

unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

That in itself would be bigoted.

Why can’t you just admit that it was a bad misstep instead of trying to gaslight people? You mentioned potentially investigating a Chinese approach to ‘extremists’…well, the approach towards Uighur and other Muslim minorities has been fudging appalling. Add to that the wave of populism and fascism globally, and the potential consequences of such an ‘approach’ would leave many in deep fear. One day extremism is defined one way, the next another. The best way to eradicate extremism will always be to snuff out the conditions which see disaffected and marginalized communities continually ignored and left to become cannon-fodder for extremist recruitment.

Again, I am not sure why you cannot admit the suggestion was poor and perhaps without much thought? Unless you genuinely do believe in what you said, in which case we have nothing left to discuss as I think you’re so wrong it defies belief.