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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Why can’t you just admit that it was a bad misstep instead of trying to gaslight people? You mentioned potentially investigating a Chinese approach to ‘extremists’…well, the approach towards Uighur and other Muslim minorities has been fudging appalling. Add to that the wave of populism and fascism globally, and the potential consequences of such an ‘approach’ would leave many in deep fear. One day extremism is defined one way, the next another. The best way to eradicate extremism will always be to snuff out the conditions which see disaffected and marginalized communities continually ignored and left to become cannon-fodder for extremist recruitment.

Again, I am not sure why you cannot admit the suggestion was poor and perhaps without much thought? Unless you genuinely do believe in what you said, in which case we have nothing left to discuss as I think you’re so wrong it defies belief.

I carried out research in communist Cuba in the 90s and naughties. The structures of government are different to liberal democries. And while mostly suboptimal, there are elements to totalitarian government that work sometimes. Not all that often, but sometimes. To dictate that people can not even talk about or discuss things, is why I think a 'woke' approach really rubs people up the wrong way. It is a hysterical "rightness" that precludes free thinking. You must follow the woke doctrines and not think outside the box, or else you are vilified. Called a bigot and chased out of town! Highly ironic when it is coming from a group of people who profess to have liberal ethics.
 
I carried out research in communist Cuba in the 90s and naughties. The structures of government are different to liberal democries. And while mostly suboptimal, there are elements to totalitarian government that work sometimes. Not all that often, but sometimes. To dictate that people can not even talk about or discuss things, is why I think a 'woke' approach really rubs people up the wrong way. It is a hysterical "rightness" that precludes free thinking. You must follow the woke doctrines and not think outside the box, or else you are vilified. Called a bigot and chased out of town! Highly ironic when it is coming from a group of people who profess to have liberal ethics.

You are now using the ‘woke’ trampoline.
I could not be further from ‘woke’ or whatever fancy phrase you’re using.
This is a very simple question/issue regarding what you wrote.
Again…you suggested a Chinese approach to extremism.
Given that the context of discussion was centered around Muslim extremists, it was fair to conclude that you were suggesting a ‘Chinese approach’ to the matter.
It was therefore fair to conclude that you were suggesting a ‘camps’ style method.
Some found that unpalatable.
You appeared to flip it into an ‘anti-China’ reaction.
Again, this has nothing to do with ‘woke doctrines’ or anything else you’ve cooked up.
This is simple.
Do you think the Chinese approach to extremists i.e. camps, is something which should be investigated as a potential ‘resource’ or not?
If you do, then I think you are so far beyond wrong it ends our conversation.
I am allowed to think that just as you are allowed to say what you said.
No-one is ‘dictating that people can not even talk about or discuss things’…consider this the discussion.
Perhaps you just didn’t like how it all looked when broken down. Understandable. I generally enjoy both your posts and the thought which goes into them, which made this one (and the subsequent apparent double-down) odd.

I remain baffled as to how you see an ‘anti-Chinese’ thing out of the comments made. The point being discussed was very specific to one element of what they’re doing, and any further comments with regards to their politics would be a whole new thread.

I am also intrigued by your comments about ‘government structures’. I think many here know there are significant differences. What was your point in saying this (not trying to be rude, trying to understand)?

I am interested to know where you have been called a ‘bigot’ or ‘chased out of town’? I appear to be missing something.
 
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Firstly, I think Islam has to openly condemn radicals. And ensure the world understands they are not welcome or related to their community or faith. Why aren’t people disassociating Islam from radical beliefs more? I know some Muslims are, but this has to be a cornerstone and 100% clear. I’m not sure it always it at the moment.

Ok whoever Islam is I can call them and tell them to condemn extremists. Just let me know who that is. And again you make the horrible assumption that we Muslims aren't heterogeneous. Which is antithetical to what you have said earlier. Make your mind up.
 
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Erm yes that's the point. No private schools, no religious schools. Every child gets the same schooling. As much of an equal opportunity we can give.

No ghettos. No divide between rich and poor areas. Integration.

We have established that we have not seen any terrorism from people radicalised in religious schools in the UK. So this may suit your ideals but it fixes nothing.

Oh and Marxism doesn't work as humans are greedy.
 
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Yes I've seen the Adam Curtis piece. It is one side of it. But I think the answers are to be found within communities rather than global politics. It is not just Islam remember. Probably the worst recent atrocity was a white-power radical who killed 51 innocent peaceful Muslims in New Zealand.

Adam Curtis?

 
i don’t have answers I’m just looking at solutions. Granted China’s way of trying to tackle extremism is misguided and unacceptable when it involves imprisonment of innocent people. We all agree. But here in the UK we have a ‘re-education’ program of our own. It’s called Prevent. It probably doesn’t prevent as much as Chinas draconian measures but it is an effort to support those who are at danger of being radicalised.

The question is what do you do as a society with people who follow hateful doctrine?

Firstly, I think Islam has to openly condemn radicals. And ensure the world understands they are not welcome or related to their community or faith. Why aren’t people disassociating Islam from radical beliefs more? I know some Muslims are, but this has to be a cornerstone and 100% clear. I’m not sure it always it at the moment.

To protect people from those that carry hate and glorify violence, we owe it to the victims to tackle and outlaw such groups as best we can.

You could have written the above about white supremacy and evangelicals in the US. In fact, I will...

Firstly, I think Evangelical Christians have to openly condemn the white supremacy movement. And ensure the world understands they are not welcome or related to their community or faith. Why aren’t people disassociating white supremacy from radical beliefs more? I know some Christians are, but this has to be a cornerstone and 100% clear. I’m not sure it always is at the moment.

To protect people from those that espouse bigotry and glorify racism, we owe it to the victims to tackle and outlaw such groups as best we can.


Hate is hate. It will find an outlet if you are that way inclined.
 
You could have written the above about white supremacy and evangelicals in the US. In fact, I will...

Firstly, I think Evangelical Christians have to openly condemn the white supremacy movement. And ensure the world understands they are not welcome or related to their community or faith. Why aren’t people disassociating white supremacy from radical beliefs more? I know some Christians are, but this has to be a cornerstone and 100% clear. I’m not sure it always is at the moment.

To protect people from those that espouse bigotry and glorify racism, we owe it to the victims to tackle and outlaw such groups as best we can.


Hate is hate. It will find an outlet if you are that way inclined.

Thank you.
 
You could have written the above about white supremacy and evangelicals in the US. In fact, I will...

Firstly, I think Evangelical Christians have to openly condemn the white supremacy movement. And ensure the world understands they are not welcome or related to their community or faith. Why aren’t people disassociating white supremacy from radical beliefs more? I know some Christians are, but this has to be a cornerstone and 100% clear. I’m not sure it always is at the moment.

To protect people from those that espouse bigotry and glorify racism, we owe it to the victims to tackle and outlaw such groups as best we can.


Hate is hate. It will find an outlet if you are that way inclined.

I completely agree.

If there is a link between a legitimate peaceful community, and a violent hateful community, the majority original community should ensure there is no doubt that this other group that purports to be associated with it, is not in its name or associated with it. For kids, and society in general the pariah needs to be shunned without reserve. There are some Islamic groups that actively do this.
 
Ok whoever Islam is I can call them and tell them to condemn extremists. Just let me know who that is. And again you make the horrible assumption that we Muslims aren't heterogeneous. Which is antithetical to what you have said earlier. Make your mind up.

I'm not sure that is fair as I was talking about different groups in that post "I know some Muslims are, but this has to be a cornerstone and 100% clear." I am all for moderate Islam. I respect its beliefs and doctrines.
 
I completely agree.

If there is a link between a legitimate peaceful community, and a violent hateful community, the majority original community should ensure there is no doubt that this other group that purports to be associated with it, is not in its name or associated with it. For kids, and society in general the pariah needs to be shunned without reserve. There are some Islamic groups that actively do this.
Well yes, but do they? I think many of the accusations being levelled against Muslims could equally be applied to other groups and should be frankly.
 
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Erm yes that's the point. No private schools, no religious schools. Every child gets the same schooling. As much of an equal opportunity we can give.

No ghettos. No divide between rich and poor areas. Integration.
Levelling up by pulling the top down is not a great plan.
 
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Levelling up by pulling the top down is not a great plan.

Why does it have to be pulling the top down? Why can't every child get a good education? Not against grammar schools for the brightest to go for secondary education. But why shouldn't a child born into a poor family not get a good education and chance to prove themselves?
 
You could have written the above about white supremacy and evangelicals in the US. In fact, I will...

Firstly, I think Evangelical Christians have to openly condemn the white supremacy movement. And ensure the world understands they are not welcome or related to their community or faith. Why aren’t people disassociating white supremacy from radical beliefs more? I know some Christians are, but this has to be a cornerstone and 100% clear. I’m not sure it always is at the moment.

To protect people from those that espouse bigotry and glorify racism, we owe it to the victims to tackle and outlaw such groups as best we can.


Hate is hate. It will find an outlet if you are that way inclined.
Absolutely agree. The only sensible answer is to treat all religion equally and remove said stain from mankind's underwear.
 
Why does it have to be pulling the top down? Why can't every child get a good education? Not against grammar schools for the brightest to go for secondary education. But why shouldn't a child born into a poor family not get a good education and chance to prove themselves?
I agree that everyone should have a chance of a good education. Unfortunately the socialists ruined that when they enforced the removal of grammar schools.

Attempting to funnel the academic and the unteachable through the same schools is a ridiculous idea with obvious consequences.

Private schools work because consumers should always have choice. I should have the choice to place my kids in any school I can afford. The scheme would be significantly improved if doing so meant a tax rebate on the portion that would have been spent "educating" my children.
 
I agree that everyone should have a chance of a good education. Unfortunately the socialists ruined that when they enforced the removal of grammar schools.

Attempting to funnel the academic and the unteachable through the same schools is a ridiculous idea with obvious consequences.

Private schools work because consumers should always have choice. I should have the choice to place my kids in any school I can afford. The scheme would be significantly improved if doing so meant a tax rebate on the portion that would have been spent "educating" my children.

I believe in equal opportunities not equal outcomes.
 
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