Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[markysimmo]

I thought he was a British National as per the police, with added commentary that he’s of Somalian heritage. (Am away at the moment and have only read some of what’s on the BBC website so I may not be up to date). Is it confirmed that he is a Somalian migrant who came here illegally via the Channel? And even if that transpires to be the case, it’s wrong to make that assumption now until the facts are known - it kind of implies that all Somalian migrants are potential terrorist murderers.

Agreed, I was being presumptious

Edit, you was correct

Official sources told the PA news agency the man is believed to be a British national with Somali heritage.

As part of the investigation, officers were also carrying out searches at two addresses in the London area, the Met said

 

[LutonSpurs]

Could we do more to outlaw radical islam? I know its ethically difficult ground. Would you do the same for other radical movements etc. Freedom of beliefs etc. However, other radical movements don't seem to have the same frequency for innocent people being murdered. Joe Cox, however, was murdered by a radical non-muslim, so we have to be careful.

Is there any reason to allow movements that promote serious violence? Rather than just monitor individuals with links to extremism, are there any other ways we can act? Deportation. Tagging. even the Chinese re-education programmes applied with more subtly shouldn't be ruled out.

For the general population, we must make a distinction between Islam - a doctrine that for 99% of people is about kinship, love, support and kindness - and Radical Islam which promotes violence and is really a death cult. The two share a common term and etymology but not much more.

Concentration camps? This is the most terrifying and bigoted thing I've ever read on this forum. I'm terrified of the response after acts like this and you are proof that myself and my family have to be afraid. I hope you can reflect on that.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Concentration camps? This is the most terrifying and bigoted thing I've ever read on this forum. I'm terrified of the response after acts like this and you are proof that myself and my family have to be afraid. I hope you can reflect on that.

If you didn't read my post, I was clear about the distinction between Islam and radical Islam. If you are afraid I am not sure why. Only those who seek to impose hate and violence need be afraid surely?

Bigoted is normally associated with prejudices - pre-judgments. I am not making any judgment, just looking at all the ways the world is trying to deal with violence against innocent people in the name of Islam. We have existing programs in the UK that are focused on "re-educating" radical thinking. Prevent is it? No one is suggesting locking up innocent people in the UK, just looking at how the world is trying to deal with radical fundamentalism. The Chinese also use various other tactics which no doubt we are too - tracking/hacking mobile phones for example. The way China is sometimes viewed as the evil other can itself be somewhat bigoted.

What are your recommended solutions?

 

[LutonSpurs]

If you didn't read my post, I was clear about the distinction between Islam and radical Islam. If you are afraid I am not sure why. Only those who seek to impose hate and violence need be afraid surely?

Bigoted is normally associated with prejudices - pre-judgments. I am not making any judgment, just looking at all the ways the world is trying to deal with violence against innocent people in the name of Islam. We have existing programs in the UK that are focused on "re-educating" radical thinking. Prevent is it? No one is suggesting locking up innocent people in the UK, just looking at how the world is trying to deal with radical fundamentalism. The Chinese also use various other tactics which no doubt we are too - tracking/hacking mobile phones for example. The way China is sometimes viewed as the evil other can itself be somewhat bigoted.

What are your recommended solutions?

That we use the decent laws we have and never have concentration camps like the Chinese. If you don't think that's a reasonable thing to be offended by then I'm not sure what to say.

 

[milo]

If you didn't read my post, I was clear about the distinction between Islam and radical Islam. If you are afraid I am not sure why. Only those who seek to impose hate and violence need be afraid surely?

Bigoted is normally associated with prejudices - pre-judgments. I am not making any judgment, just looking at all the ways the world is trying to deal with violence against innocent people in the name of Islam. We have existing programs in the UK that are focused on "re-educating" radical thinking. Prevent is it? No one is suggesting locking up innocent people in the UK, just looking at how the world is trying to deal with radical fundamentalism. The Chinese also use various other tactics which no doubt we are too - tracking/hacking mobile phones for example. The way China is sometimes viewed as the evil other can itself be somewhat bigoted.

What are your recommended solutions?

I wasn't expecting you to double down on concentration camps.

 

[LutonSpurs]

And anybody who thinks concentrations camps should exist for all violent extremists in this country please explain how they would work. I'd love to understand the proposal.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

And anybody who thinks concentrations camps should exist for all violent extremists in this country please explain how they would work. If love to understand the proposal.

There would be chalets, and yellowcoats to keep order, and Ted Bovis to promote British values. It’s worth trying.

 

[DTA]

I thought it was a well known fact that homosexuality is not accepted in muslim countries? Or being athiest? Even in democratic countries they vote for parties that share these beliefs. Pakistan homosexuality is punishable by death.

it’s a fact is it? The actual Fact is that there is more non Muslim countries that outlaw Homosexuality than there are Muslim countries that outlaw it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I wasn't expecting you to double down on concentration camps.

What part of "no one is suggesting locking up innocent people in the UK" were you unable to comprehend? Or maybe I don't understand what you mean by doubling down.

 

[DTA]

What part of "no one is suggesting locking up innocent people in the UK" were you unable to comprehend? Or maybe I don't understand what you mean by doubling down.

the bit where you talk about Chinese style concentration camps.

you know where mass sterilisation occurs, brain washing, rapes and beatings.


I think that may be the problem.

 

[SpurMeUp]

And anybody who thinks concentrations camps should exist for all violent extremists in this country please explain how they would work. I'd love to understand the proposal.

The issue isn't what you do with violent extremists, it is how you define and identify them. Whether the mass murderer of Muslims in New Zealand, or the guy who just stabbed one of our MPs how you treat violent extremists is not a concern is it!? It is how you identify them that is the problem.

 

[Lilbaz]

it’s a fact is it? The actual Fact is that there is more non Muslim countries that outlaw Homosexuality than there are Muslim countries that outlaw it.

And we need to ensure that people from those countries are integrated and understand our values aswell.

But if you don't think there is an issue we should just ignore it then? Muslims love gay people is that right?

 

[Glenda's Legs]

There would be chalets, and yellowcoats to keep order, and Ted Bovis to promote British values. It’s worth trying.

You might be on to something there. Sue Pollard on a never ending loop might be the answer.

 

[DTA]

The issue isn't what you do with violent extremists, it is how you define and identify them. Whether the mass murderer of Muslims in New Zealand, or the guy who just stabbed one of our MPs how you treat violent extremists is not a concern is it!? It is how you identify them that is the problem.

Identifying them.

it’s also the problem with your posts about concentration camps… and why Luton is scared for himself and his family

 

[SpurMeUp]

the bit where you talk about Chinese style concentration camps I think that done it.

And while I am not suggesting we do what China has done locking up people, I would like to know why if you mention China you get a slightly bigoted response. Things are not only black and white. Just as Islam is not all good or all bad, neither is China and totalitarianism. Again - so people don't get their knickers in a twist - I am not advocating doing what China does, just discussing all approaches. We have a slightly bigoted viewpoint on communist or totalitarian regimes - with some justification a lot of time as people are less free. However, we should consider different ways of governing, and not make sweeping judgments about them. To:

unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

That in itself would be bigoted.

 

[DTA]

And we need to ensure that people from those countries are integrated and understand our values aswell.

But if you don't think there is an issue we should just ignore it then? Muslims love gay people is that right?

what do you mean by Muslims?

do conservatives love gay people?

do Christians?

do Athiests?

do Gay people love gay people… or is it completely STUPID to put and describe any ‘people’ as one hegemonic group?

 

[DTA]

And while I am not suggesting we do what China has done locking up people, I would like to know why if you mention China you get a slightly bigoted response. Things are not only black and white. Just as Islam is not all good or all bad, neither is China and totalitarianism. Again - so people don't get their knickers in a twist - I am not advocating doing what China does, just discussing all approaches. We have a slightly bigoted viewpoint on communist or totalitarian regimes - with some justification a lot of time as people are less free. However, we should consider different ways of governing, and not make sweeping judgments about them. To:

unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

That in itself would be bigoted.

take out the concentration camps and possibly animal rights issues (although we are no saints),

And I have no problem with China, I think that a freer society is better and I would much prefer to live here than there despite the faults we have here.

What china are doing in those concentration camps though… that’s absolutely abhorrent and for you to use them as an example is beyond baffling.

there is said to be a million people in those camps? Are they all radicalised Muslims?

You and anyone with half a brain knows theyre not… and that’s why @LutonSpurs is afraid for his family and himself, you used china as an example to deal with radicalisation… and china’s approach is to basically put all the Muslims in concentration camps

 

[Lilbaz]

what do you mean by Muslims?

do conservatives love gay people?

do Christians?

do Athiests?

do Gay people love gay people… or is it completely STUPID to put and describe any ‘people’ as one hegemonic group?

Lol. You are the one trying to say there isn't an issue with islam and integration and acceptance of western values. There may be with other religions but catholic terrorism, sikh terrorism, budhist terrorism... isn't a major issue in the uk. Islamic terrorism is. You may not want to face that because you find it offensive/racist. But it is a problem that somehow needs to be dealt with.

I'm not calling for concentration camps or ostricising a whole religion. But we need to do something. I'd like for there to be no religious schools. Whatever the religion. And for philosophy to be taught in re classes. There is a reason that very few modern day philosophers are religious. Neil degrasse tyson put the figure at around 0.7%. Which is less than physicists.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

I'd like for there to be no religious schools. Whatever the religion.

I’d go for that.

 

[DTA]

Lol. You are the one trying to say there isn't an issue with islam and integration and acceptance of western values. There may be with other religions but catholic terrorism, sikh terrorism, budhist terrorism... isn't a major issue in the uk. Islamic terrorism is. You may not want to face that because you find it offensive/racist. But it is a problem that somehow needs to be dealt with.

I'm not calling for concentration camps or ostricising a whole religion. But we need to do something. I'd like for there to be no religious schools. Whatever the religion. And for philosophy to be taught in re classes. There is a reason that very few modern day philosophers are religious. Neil degrasse tyson put the figure at around 0.7%. Which is less than physicists.

did the guy that killed the MP go to a religious school then?

did any of the terrorist that have killed in uk gone to religious schools? What was the percentage?

I have no opinion one way or the other RE religious schools but to throw that statement out there is just stupid

maybe the answer is actually more religious schools so people can learn what each faith is actually about rather than learning from some crackpot cünt on the internet… not saying that is the answer either by the way.