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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Danishfurniturelover said:
Are you suggesting the public have been fingered up the road haulage association who are in favour of cheaper foreign labour to increase their profits at the detriment of the country?

I had a bad morning so thought I would actually read this thread to cheer myself up. It worked, I can not believe how wrong most in this thread are about most issues. It is funny to be honest.

Imagine the thought of working class guys wanting better pay. Nah I don't want those mainly white working class, common accent scumbags getting better wages. Filth pure filth and as for training up people who are unemployed and giving them a purpose to their days, no chance. Rather they sat on benefits they do not bother me.

You know more then left or right I think the issue is with how some of you guys view the working class, it is deplorable really.

Would not bother me if my son wanted to be a lorry driver, though he is in his final year before 6 form and is finally getting down to work as he wants to be a graphic designer whatever the hell that is.
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Fair play for pushing the other side of things - and there is a valid other side. Brexit is too complex to be completely black or white. As you know on balance I was pro remain but valid arguments for both sides can be made.

If Brexit was done well, our government would agile training up HGV drivers and lowering unemployment, maybe even exporting drivers. But we lack agility in government. Leaving the EU didn’t change that. China is far more agile as you don’t need to run everything past parliament and the press. But you’d hope we could became more effective, able to be light on our feet and utilise our independence from the EU. Im sure there will be some Brexit wins along the way once the fire fighting stops.

As with football teams, they are not built in a day. Nuno needs to be given time to rebuild. And although Brexit makes little sense for trade or cooperation, there are some potential benefits and we have to let things settle before we can achieve them. But the biggest wins I think would come from shaking up our own government structures and the civil service. There are many many good people and things in these structures but also so much that is stale. The culture and ineffective practices of much of our Uk government needs a shake up, so that we can be more agile and achieve some of the sentiments of Brexit. I’ve always been a fan of brexits overarching goals and beliefs - we should take pride in the nation and wish for it to be self determined and better than it is today. Personally I would have strived for that while being in the EU but now we have a clean break, can we actually do something with it?

Sadly, I doubt it. The government structures in England are deep rooted. And although the government of the day have a massive majority they have been knocked sideways by covid and don’t have the vision to shake things up. Cummings had some ideas but was better at exciting people than delivering. Boris without a visionary sidekick can only follow the prevailing wind.
 
scaramanga said:
I'll happily switch when electric cars are as good. I'm not against them in principle, just the hair-shirted approach to carbon reduction.
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Short term electric cars will prevail but longer term I can’t see them sticking around unless there are some major upgrades to battery tech. Hydrogen or efuels will probably surpass electric cars eventually.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
SpurMeUp said:
Short term electric cars will prevail but longer term I can’t see them sticking around unless there are some major upgrades to battery tech. Hydrogen or efuels will probably surpass electric cars eventually.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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Koenigsegg have the best answer I've seen so far.

They take the waste carbon from industries where it's unavoidable (such as steel) and use solar power to turn it into bioethanol.

All their cars can run on it, it's as easy to store, use, fill up with as petrol. It has all the upsides of EV with none of the downsides (except that it will upset the hairy armpitted women who protest these kinds of things).
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Are you suggesting the public have been fingered up the road haulage association who are in favour of cheaper foreign labour to increase their profits at the detriment of the country?

I had a bad morning so thought I would actually read this thread to cheer myself up. It worked, I can not believe how wrong most in this thread are about most issues. It is funny to be honest.

Imagine the thought of working class guys wanting better pay. Nah I don't want those mainly white working class, common accent scumbags getting better wages. Filth pure filth and as for training up people who are unemployed and giving them a purpose to their days, no chance. Rather they sat on benefits they do not bother me.

You know more then left or right I think the issue is with how some of you guys view the working class, it is deplorable really.

Would not bother me if my son wanted to be a lorry driver, though he is in his final year before 6 form and is finally getting down to work as he wants to be a graphic designer whatever the hell that is.
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I think the shortages in the haulage industry is not down to class and snobbery , it’s always been a relatively well paid job, as with other transport jobs such as train and tube drivers. It’s more to do with it not being a particularly nice job. Long lonely hours, away from your family and not particularly great working conditions. From a consumer point of view if you keep putting up wages of drivers, that’ll cut the profit margins of companies unless they put up the price of goods they are hauling. Society has got used to relatively low prices so companies don’t want to put prices up.. it’s simple economics and not snobbery that is going on here.
 
Robspur12 said:
I think the shortages in the haulage industry is not down to class and snobbery , it’s always been a relatively well paid job, as with other transport jobs such as train and tube drivers. It’s more to do with it not being a particularly nice job. Long lonely hours, away from your family and not particularly great working conditions. From a consumer point of view if you keep putting up wages of drivers, that’ll cut the profit margins of companies unless they put up the price of goods they are hauling. Society has got used to relatively low prices so companies don’t want to put prices up.. it’s simple economics and not snobbery that is going on here.
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There aren't enough drivers and the wages have increased.

There are loads of people applying for HGV training so the number of drivers will increase and wages will stabilise at the correct level.

The market is working fine, it was just distorted by the govt's grubby mitts with a lockdown or two.
 
scaramanga said:
There aren't enough drivers and the wages have increased.

There are loads of people applying for HGV training so the number of drivers will increase and wages will stabilise at the correct level.

The market is working fine, it was just distorted by the govt's grubby mitts with a lockdown or two.
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There is no doubt Brexit has had an effect in making the covid shock deeper. That is the view of the hauliers themselves. It’s disingenuous to say we are only in this position because of covid. Incidentally I think some thing like 50% of applicants pass the HGV test.

Ross Atkins does a good summary of the situation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-58521211

What we needed was the government to be more flexible with immigration numbers.
 
Robspur12 said:
There is no doubt Brexit has had an effect in making the covid shock deeper. That is the view of the hauliers themselves. It’s disingenuous to say we are only in this position because of covid. Incidentally I think some thing like 50% of applicants pass the HGV test.

Ross Atkins does a good summary of the situation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-58521211

What we needed was the government to be more flexible with immigration numbers.
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It's in the interest of hauliers to make it seem as if we're desperate for drivers and they can't be quickly replaced.

The very, very upper estimates of EU nationals who have left the industry is around 20k and that's in the Grauniad - so somewhere around 10-15k max would be a good estimate.

The number of HGV drivers required is between 100k and 150k. Brexit hasn't helped, but the problem would look exactly the same without Brexit - hence central Europe suffering from the same lack of drivers.
 
scaramanga said:
It's in the interest of hauliers to make it seem as if we're desperate for drivers and they can't be quickly replaced.

The very, very upper estimates of EU nationals who have left the industry is around 20k and that's in the Grauniad - so somewhere around 10-15k max would be a good estimate.

The number of HGV drivers required is between 100k and 150k. Brexit hasn't helped, but the problem would look exactly the same without Brexit - hence central Europe suffering from the same lack of drivers.
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You’re right there is a worldwide shortage of lorry drivers but the immigration issues brought about by brexit leaves the UK far more exposed than other countries.
 
Robspur12 said:
You’re right there is a worldwide shortage of lorry drivers but the immigration issues brought about by brexit leaves the UK far more exposed than other countries.
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Roughly 10% of the problem - something that having to work over a far smaller land mass probably accounts for quite easily.

Where it doesn't, the ability to alter regulations to meet demand probably does.

It makes a nice talking point for those looking for downsides to Brexit but doesn't actually make any real world difference.
 
scaramanga said:
Roughly 10% of the problem - something that having to work over a far smaller land mass probably accounts for quite easily.

Where it doesn't, the ability to alter regulations to meet demand probably does.

It makes a nice talking point for those looking for downsides to Brexit but doesn't actually make any real world difference.
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In your opinion!. I am far more likely to believe those in the industry in terms of what they are facing and it's causes as well as the problems in front of our very eyes!!! We are not seeing fuel crises and empty pumps around Europe. This is the problem with Brexit, entrenched views on both sides. However if there is actual evidence provided by the people involved in the industry this simply cannot be ignored.

The evidence from the industry is clear.

1) There is a world wide shortage of drivers and that situation pre dates covid.
2) Brexit is one factor, although a key one that has exacerbated that issue in the UK. Along with retiring drivers and IR35 tax rule changes.
3) The UK is more exposed to shocks like covid because it cannot cover short term shortages through east European drivers as in the rest of Europe because of an end to Freedom of movement.
 
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Robspur12 said:
In your opinion!. I am far more likely to believe those in the industry in terms of what they are facing and it's causes as well as the problems in front of our very eyes!!! We are not seeing fuel crises and empty pumps around Europe. This is the problem with Brexit, entrenched views on both sides. However if there is actual evidence provided by the people involved in the industry this simply cannot be ignored.

The evidence from the industry is clear.

1) There is a world wide shortage of drivers and that situation pre dates covid.
2) Brexit is one factor, although a key one that has exacerbated that issue in the UK. Along with retiring drivers and IR35 tax rule changes.
3) The UK is more exposed to shocks like covid because it cannot cover short term shortages through east European drivers as in the rest of Europe because of an end to Freedom of movement.
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We don't have a lack of fuel here either. The only problem here is that all the departs who never drive have filled their cars up to the brim because departs gonna tard.

No system is designed for full usage, just like supermarkets and toilet roll/pasta.
 
"it's fine. we'll just hire 100,000 more lorry drivers. problem solved."

"it's fine. we'll just hire 25,000 more nurses. problem solved."

"it's fine. we'll just trade with the US. problem solved."
 
Diamond Lights said:
"it's fine. we'll just hire 100,000 more lorry drivers. problem solved."

"it's fine. we'll just hire 25,000 more nurses. problem solved."

"it's fine. we'll just trade with the US. problem solved."
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they were told years ago it was needed, what have they done about it, fudge all
 
Corbyn and his fanbase have continually failed to read the room. Making promises to go from £8 to £15ph for minimum wage will once again have the right wing media and joe public going "where are all these fantasies coming from, and being costed?"

Now Starmer will cave because Corbyn and his army still wagging the dog
 
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