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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

One atrocity of course doesn’t justify another. But Jews may have a point, they do get singled out and a lot of flack. And as we know with racism based on skin colour in the US, pre-judgments (aka prejudice) are subtle and highly affective. Personally I always felt Israel should act as the responsible party, and do a lot more to build bridges and peace. Economic investment, and cooperation across the divide is the answer.

Europe had some of the bloodiest wars and feuds many lasting centuries! For 1000+ years Europeans have massacred each other. Brutal wars that make Palestine look friendly. Only since WWII has there been sustained peace in Europe (with the exception of Yugoslavia). Now the nations trade and work together.

To get there, we need people to understand things from both sides, not choose a side and inflame injustice.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app


When individuals or groups of people are criticising Israel based purely on a hatred or prejudice against Jews then it’s a massive problem for me and should be for anyone. It always needs calling out.

But I have a problem with your last statement based on what I replied earlier. We DO need to understand both sides but the mass condemnation forming within the general public is relatively new. Israel has up until now been held up to very one-sided narrative and all that’s happening is a shift in the balance, based on actual events and truths coming to light. No-one cared about that balance until it started shifting away from ‘the narrative’
 
When individuals or groups of people are criticising Israel based purely on a hatred or prejudice against Jews then it’s a massive problem for me and should be for anyone. It always needs calling out.

But I have a problem with your last statement based on what I replied earlier. We DO need to understand both sides but the mass condemnation forming within the general public is relatively new. Israel has up until now been held up to very one-sided narrative and all that’s happening is a shift in the balance, based on actual events and truths coming to light. No-one cared about that balance until it started shifting away from ‘the narrative’

I’m not sure that is true. The whole thing with Corbyn and the Labour Party 5 years ago was effectively anti-Israel sentiment spilling into anti-Semitism. The narrative has been there in the left for many decades - justifiably so. If you’re Jewish and know there is a lot more to Israel than the representations of blood thirsty fascists you see in this thread and on social media, you will ask, why are these people not interested in the other worse atrocities happening around Israel? It suggests there is a form of subtle racism at play. Of course it is more complex than that too. But you see the logic and potential issue?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
I’m not sure that is true. The whole thing with Corbyn and the Labour Party 5 years ago was effectively anti-Israel sentiment spilling into anti-Semitism. The narrative has been there in the left for many decades - justifiably so. If you’re Jewish and know there is a lot more to Israel than the representations of blood thirsty fascists you see in this thread and on social media, you will ask, why are these people not interested in the other worse atrocities happening around Israel? It suggests there is a form of subtle racism at play. Of course it is more complex than that too. But you see the logic and potential issue?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Yes I absolutely can see that. I personally have witnessed and had shared to me some of the most disgusting anti-Semitic vitriol directed at my Israeli and Jewish friends for their activism for peace. Indiscriminately evil comments using Palestine as a tool for their hatred, but not because of the situation.
 
It’s definitely not an easy one. I think most people find it too difficult to even comment on. I tried to avoid the topic as it is deeply upsetting. But if you can get people to question their entrenched positions - on both sides - then maybe that is a positive.

The great beauty of sport and football is it doesn’t really matter.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
The death count is 230 Palestinians and 12 in Israel. i think that is what a lot of folks see and frown on. Shocking.
I think you are correct.

If the Iron Dome were deactivated and the numbers then shifted, I wonder if many of those folks would react the same way or would they think again?
 
I read this last night. Made me wonder, despite the somewhat inflammatory and skewed language used.

"Did you know that for the past three weeks Turkey has been engaged in a military assault on Iraqi Kurdistan? It’s been brutal. The Turks, who have one of the most powerful military forces on Earth, have used F-16s, F-4 Terminators and other terrifying hi-tech weaponry to pummel Kurdish positions in northern Iraq. Families have fled their homes in terror. Livelihoods have been destroyed.

‘Every day, every night… we are being bombed. Our lands are being destroyed. We cannot grow our crops’, says a Kurdish farmer.

It’s unclear how many people have died. According to Turkey, dozens of Kurdish people, mostly militants, apparently, have been killed or captured. Have you seen any big, rowdy protests in the UK about this worrying act of asymmetrical warfare? Have you seen any footballers wave the Kurdish flag in solidarity with displaced, terrified Kurds? Have you seen social media swamped by furious denunciations of the ‘bloodthirsty’ Turks and outpourings of love and concern for the brutalised Kurds?

I haven’t. I have seen all of that kind of stuff in relation to Israel, constantly, every minute of every day — loud and ever-more self-righteous condemnations of Israel for being a vile, evil, crime-committing nation, a pox on the Earth. But on Turkey’s latest assault on the Kurds? Nothing. Not a peep. Carry on, Turkey — no one’s watching. There’s a question that hangs like a long, dark shadow over Western leftists’ and liberals’ furious opposition to Israel, and I have never heard a satisfactory answer to it. It’s this: why do you hate Israel more than any other nation?

Why does Israeli militarism offend and horrify you more than Turkish militarism, or Saudi militarism, or American and British militarism for that matter? Why is it ‘genocide’ and ‘war crimes’ and ‘bloodletting’ when Israel takes action against Palestinian militants, but not when Turkey takes action against Kurdish militants? Seriously — what is the answer?

Turkey’s incursion into Iraqi Kurdistan is called Operation Claw-Lightning. It started on 23 April. It is part of Turkey’s long-running war with the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), the militant Kurdish organisation dedicated to creating an independent Kurdistan and based mainly in south-eastern Turkey and northern Iraq. Operation Claw-Lightning is a follow-up to Operation Claw, a Turkish onslaught in Iraqi Kurdistan that lasted from May 2019 to June 2020. Hundreds of people were killed or wounded in that operation. These operations, of course, are only the latest flare-ups in Turkey’s 40-year war with Kurdish militants, which has led to the deaths of around 20,000 Kurdish civilians and the destruction of between 2,500 and 4,000 Kurdish villages.

So where are the Kurdish flags on caring people’s social-media feeds? Why doesn’t Sky News have pained-looking reporters in Iraqi Kurdistan talking to families who have been displaced by the Turkish bombardment? Why haven’t tens of thousands of Brits taken to the streets to register their fury with Turkey, as they have done with Israel following its latest conflict with Hamas in Gaza?

The woke set’s myopic loathing for Israel really is extraordinary. We are so used to it now that we take it as normal. But it isn’t normal. There are military tensions and conflicts around the world that are causing great suffering — in Kurdistan, Yemen, Xinjiang — yet none of them triggers the rage reflex in virtuous Westerners anywhere near as much as Israel’s actions do.

Saudi Arabia can bomb a school bus and kill 40 children, as part of its brutal war in Yemen, and most Western campaigners don’t lose a wink of sleep. But Israel just has to start wheeling its military aircraft out of the hangar and they’re up at the crack of dawn on a Saturday, dusting down their Palestinian flags, putting the finishing touches to their ‘Israel is Evil’ placards, and taking to the streets in their tens of thousands to condemn this most wicked, genocidal, apartheid state.

On the rare occasion they do try to justify their feverish obsession with Israel, it just doesn’t add up. The Israel-Palestine conflict has been going on for decades and it’s really tragic, they say. And Israel is supported by our governments, so we have a responsibility to act, they insist. What’s more, Israel occupies Palestinian land and that just has to be challenged, they argue.

But all of these things can be said about Turkey versus Kurdistan. It’s a very old conflict. Turkey is a Western ally; it’s a member of Nato for heaven’s sake. And Turkey occupies what many, many people consider to be Kurdish land. So, again, answer this question: why does Israel offend you more than Turkey does?

To be clear, I am not comparing Israel to Turkey. Israel, unlike Turkey, faces an existential threat. It is surrounded by hostility. Hamas is an extremist Islamist movement whose founding charter was full of anti-Semitism. Hamas’s aim is less to build an independent nation state than to punish the Jews. It is currently firing hundreds of missiles directly into Israel.

Whatever one might think of the PKK, it isn’t doing any of these things right now. And yet Israel is loathed for defending itself from missiles fired by an anti-Jewish terrorist organisation, while Turkey is ignored despite continuing its long, ugly war with Kurdish forces.

It seems to me that, increasingly, there is nothing very rational or normal about the hatred for Israel that sporadically sweeps the West. Rather, Israel has become a whipping boy for the elites, a nation that has cynically been turned into the embodiment of evil by virtue-signalling Westerners in desperate need for an outlet for their rage and pontification.

If there is another, more convincing explanation for today’s furious anti-Israel sentiment I’d love to hear it. But until one is forthcoming, the rest of us will be justified in wondering if perhaps an old, dark hatred, whether wittingly or unwittingly, underpins the manic loathing of Israel."

You know I wasn't going to post again about this topic because there is a cease fire. But then I read this.

So let's talk about the difference between Turkey and Israel in relation to the Palestinian and Kurdish populations.

Turkey has had three Kurdish Origin priministers how many Palestinian Priministers have there been in Israel?

Approximately 50% of the Kurdish population votes for the AKP (Erdoğan's party, I'm not a fan by the way) how many Palestinians vote for BIBI?

Can the Palestinians in the Israel controlled West bank vote for any party in Israel? If not why does Israel control the west bank without giving them the right to vote? This doesn't happen in Turkey.

When Sadam was gassing the kurds in Iraq. Turkey let in between 400k to 1m iraqi Kurdish refugees. In the war in Syria Turkey let in Approximately 250k Syrian Kurdish refugees. When has Israel done something similar for the Palestinians?

The biggest star in Turkey probably ever, is a Kurdish singer (Abraham Tatlises or Ibo). Anything like that happen in Isarel with a Palestinian?

The nationalist party in Turkey the furthest to the right in Parliament (the MHP, I'm not a fan by the way) call the Kurdish population brothers and make the distinction between the Kurdish population and the PKK. I think although not sure they even have had senior Kurdish representation. That happen with most far right party in Israel? What do they say about the Palestinians?

Israel bombs and raises to the ground a building housing media in Gaza. Turkey has a state funded Kurdish language broadcaster. Anything like that in Israel?

The vast Majority of the Kurdish population in Turkey do not want to split Turkey and create a separate Kurdish state. This can be seen in voting patterns most clearly, but also if you guage the opinions of people. Do the majority of the Palestinians want a separate state in Israel controlled West bank and East JERUSALEM?

The Turkish and Kurdish populations of Turkey are so intertwined through marriages. Is this the same in Israel?

I could go on but I will stop there and await your answers to the questions I posed.

Now Turkey is not perfect by any means pretty far from it, and I'm happy to discuss that and condemn some of their actions.
 
Amazing. Can I ask where this is from please?

Also, to add, I spent a long time writing my post the other night and it has received no response. So can I assume I've convinced some of you to be a bit more balanced?

And one other thing - if people are serious about boycotting products and services from Israel (which is what happens intermittently around periods of conflict in Israel) here is a short list of just some of the incredible contribution that Israel has made to Western civilisation (by the way, I've seen mention of Jewish companies being boycotted as part of this 'action' - would love to know how that makes sense.....):

https://theculturetrip.com/middle-e...1-israeli-innovations-that-changed-the-world/

I didn't answer your post the other night because I can kind of see @SpurMeUp to a point about other things going on in the world being as bad or worse than what the Palestinians are going through China's treatment of the Uygurs being the prime example.
That doesn't mean Israel shouldn't be exposed for what they are doing, they should. And I feel I did that with the orginal post. To post again on it I didn't feel was warranted. But ok I will respond to your post

While I'm doing that please answer the questions I posed above. Thank you.
 
Thank you for your answers

On the suggestion that Germany should have been the location for the home of the persecuted Jews, I'm not sure if that was supposed to be a joke, but I don't think that would have been appropriate

No not a joke. It was Germanys crime (not a strong enough word) against the Jews of Europe they should have had to pay. German population should have been moved out of an area in Germany and Jewish people settle there. As a Jewish state.

My question asking about what Israel should be doing, I think maybe my question was poorly worded. What I meant to ask was, how do you think Israel should respond to the 1,000+ rockets being fired into Israel in this current conflict. I'm not disagreeing that there is an imbalance in power, I'm asking what you think would be an appropriate response. There seems to be universal condemnation of what they're doing (which I absolutely concede is fair), but this is war unfortunately. So, a metaphor could be, if a smaller-than-average person purposely keeps kicking a clearly capable fighter below the belt again and again and again, would you not expect him to eventually punch that person back? I know it's a pretty poor metaphor, but it's trying to highlight the "fudged if you do, fudged if you don't" situation.

The fact is that this "round" did not start with the thousands if rocket being fired in to Israel. It started with Bibi being under pressure for being a corruption... um person. So he ordered things Like steainl Palestinians homes and calling a raid on a Mosque while people are praying... totally expecting and getting a reaction... do you really believe that is a coincidence?

On to your metaphor the little annoying pri ck didn't start hitting you In the bollo cks for no reason. Stop giving a reason to punch you in the bolloc ks and I will go round with you and give him a slap if he does it again.




I know that the response will be: "but these people are acting out of desperation, so they're only kicking in order to get what they feel is rightfully theirs" but here is where it gets tricky, because the actual people firing the rockets towards Israel are proclaiming that all they want is the death of all Jews and the end of the state of Israel... so, conceding to the poor civilians (who are unwitting pawns in all of this, lambs to the slaughter for all hamas care) results in hamas gaining more control and more leverage in gaining their end goal (they're not hiding this fact by the way)...

Hamas are c unts. There is no justified reason for targeting civilians. But I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) even they say they would recognise Israel and 1947 boarders (that's not reasonable 1967 is though imho).

So, whilst all the reasonable people (me included by the way) want a two state solution,
the Israeli government have danced this dance several times over the decades and they know that it's not a two state solution that is wanted by hamas. Fixing this for the people in gaza and the west bank is complicated by the involvement of a bunch of people who will take advantage of any concession whatsoever

I know there's a lot of supposition in there, but the one thing that everybody seems to be glossing over here is that hamas are involved - a known terrorist cell who want to end Israel and all of the Jews......

Israel can get rid of hamas (relatively) quicky. Just allow the the Palestinian to have a better alternative. Hamas are not in control of the west bank so what's the deal there?

On the Turks question, that wasn't me that asked that

I thought it was you that asked if Turkey should have control. Regardless I wanted to re-iterate Turks long standing relationships with Jewish people.

Bibi distraction - he is far from being a saint, far, far, far but he is no worse than almost all other leaders across the world and better than a lot of his peers in the middle East. Is he using this as a distraction technique? Possibly. Wouldn't put it past him. Would I like a leader of Israel that puts an end to the whole conflict? Yes. But as mentioned above, its not as simple as it sounds

Bibi is a lot lot worse than a most of the leaders across the world. He really is. I really dont understand why you don't see that.

On the dispute over jerusalem - I don't think you're going to agree with my answer but here it is - this land has been 'owned' by many different peoples over the centuries, I don't know who should 'own' it now. I'd personally prefer it if nobody owned it and everyone just lived there peacefully, but as above, that doesn't sound likely. Your point I guess is that there were a group of people living there contentedly and some other people waged a war and took the land from them... that has happened a LOT across the planet. Israel took one square mile of land and the world is in uproar. Why is that? What is the affinity to the previous residents? I'd understand if you lived there or a member of your family, but I'm guessing that's not the case. For example, do you care that my great- grandparents generation were forcibly removed from Poland & Russia (the pogroms (see link)- this is not just about the nazis remember)? Should we be given back that land?

Yeah I care what happened to your great grandparents. I would care even more if it was happening today. Where did they go to by the way?
And yes if there is proof of ownership you should be given back land


What do I think of the attack of the Mosque on the holiest night for the Muslims? Terrible, disgusting but in the context of what is happening I'm guessing (I could be wrong), that there was a reason for this and it wasn't just "let's bomb some praying Muslims for bricks and giggles". Whether it be that hamas were hiding in the Mosque or whether there was intelligence that there was something being planned or executed in there at that moment I don't know. Either way, it was wrong, of course - but the question has to come with a bit of context.

You talk about context but then fill your answer with supposition WTF?

Am I right wing? Nope, far from it. I hate war, I hate fighting, I hate capitalism and I'm in fact a socialist at heart. But I've been to Israel many times, and from what i know, this is not about the powerful dictator keeping the poor people in their place. It's about protecting themselves from the terrorists that want to wipe them off the face of the planet. If this could be ended tomorrow and hamas (the terrorist cell) were wiped out,

Again this is not just about hamas is it. hamas is not in control of people in the west bank is it? Why can't the people in the west bank vote for those who control the land, ie ISRAEL? and if Israel is not in control of the west bank (it is) then why is it building settlements there? I wouldnreally like you to answer that one


Do you think that the present Israel government is far right? If not, why not? I think that the Israeli government are clams, but they are necessary clams. If they weren't, Israel would be gone and I would be witnessing the beginning of another attempt to wipe Jews off the face of the planet - see the above link to the Pogroms or look at the manifestos of hamas or the other terrorist cells operating in the middle East

I just disagree with this. I believe the people of Israel deserve a better government and better chance for peace.

What do you think of Bibi? See above

How would you resolve the conflict? fudge knows. It's a mess, an almighty mess. Both sides have their reasons for doing what they are doing and BOTH should be condemned for their actions. The reason I started posting on here about this topic is to promote a debate and not for people to condemn Israel without recognising the bad from the other side too



FYI and this is a massive generalisation (so forgive me) but all things being equal I would back Jewish people over Arabs, I genuinely would. I have more positive experience with Jewish people. And the Turk in me has not forgiven the Arabs for how they turned on the Ottomans.

Not sure how to respond to this other than to say:
1. It's a similar concern that is what is preventing this conflict being resolved. A huge lack of trust, in both sides
2. We're talking about this, I hope you're reading my posts with an open mind - and that's the first step to resolving any issue, an open conversation
3. If you haven't watched it already, I highly recommend Fauda. It depicts the situation in Israel perfectly, it shows both sides of the story well - it's on netflix

Answers in bold
 
You know I wasn't going to post again about this topic because there is a cease fire. But then I read Derp

So let's talk about the difference between Turkey and Israel in relation to the Palestinian and Kurdish populations.

Turkey has had three Kurdish Origin priministers how many Palestinian Priministers have there been in Israel?

Approximately 50% of the Kurdish population votes for the AKP (Erdoğan's party, I'm not a fan by the way) how many Palestinians vote for BIBI?

Can the Palestinians in the Israel controlled West bank vote for any party in Israel? If not why does Israel control the west bank without giving them the right to vote? This doesn't happen in Turkey.

When Sadam was gassing the kurds in Iraq. Turkey let in between 400k to 1m iraqi Kurdish refugees. In the war in Syria Turkey let in Approximately 250k Syrian Kurdish refugees. When has Israel done something similar for the Palestinians?

The biggest star in Turkey probably ever, is a Kurdish singer (Abraham Tatlises or Ibo). Anything like that happen in Isarel with a Palestinian?

The nationalist party in Turkey the furthest to the right in Parliament (the MHP, I'm not a fan by the way) call the Kurdish population brothers and make the distinction between the Kurdish population and the PKK. I think although not sure they even have had senior Kurdish representation. That happen with most far right party in Israel? What do they say about the Palestinians?

Israel bombs and raises to the ground a building housing media in Gaza. Turkey has a state funded Kurdish language broadcaster. Anything like that in Israel?

The vast Majority of the Kurdish population in Turkey do not want to split Turkey and create a separate Kurdish state. This can be seen in voting patterns most clearly, but also if you guage the opinions of people. Do the majority of the Palestinians want a separate state in Israel controlled West bank and East JERUSALEM?

The Turkish and Kurdish populations of Turkey are so intertwined through marriages. Is this the same in Israel?

I could go on but I will stop there and await your answers to the questions I posed.

Now Turkey is not perfect by any means pretty far from it, and I'm happy to discuss that and condemn some of their actions.
That was an education.
 
I didn't answer your post the other night because I can kind of see @SpurMeUp to a point about other things going on in the world being as bad or worse than what the Palestinians are going through China's treatment of the Uygurs being the prime example.
That doesn't mean Israel shouldn't be exposed for what they are doing, they should. And I feel I did that with the orginal post. To post again on it I didn't feel was warranted. But ok I will respond to your post

While I'm doing that please answer the questions I posed above. Thank you.

Which questions?
 
That was an education.

Thank you.

For the sake of balance and for a clear demonstration that I am more than willing to hand criticism to Turkey.

For a long time the Kurdish population of Turkey were called Moutain Turks and their Kudish identity squashed. The reason for this are complex (somewhat based on the French system of national identity which was adopted by the early Republic and distorted mainly by junta governments... not a good look). But there is little doubt that this was an attempt of Turkfication of the Kurdish Population.

For a long time the Kurdish Language was banned in Turkish institutions and broadcasting. I belive this ceased 30 years ago ( I may be wrong) today as I mentioned there is state funded Kurdish language TV and radio station. In the South East there is Kurdish and Turkish road signs etc. But there are still problems (not sure how widepread) with acces to translaters in courts etc.

Turkey has arrested the leader of the HDP (the main Kurdish party in Turksih Parliament). He is still in jail. The Turkish government say that he incited violence by calling Kurdish people to the streets. He says he was calling for protests not violence. In fairness the AKP arrest Turks as well for sometimes flimsy excuses (like I said not a fan of the AKP) so not sure that's a racial issue.

There are some obviously racist Turks as well who look down on the Kurdish population. Just like any population.

I mentioned the MHP (nationalist Turkish party) calling the Kurdish population brothers. Buy being what they re (nationalist) I'm sure although I have no examples) they have also said other offensive things.

There is obviously more, including what happend dersim 90 years ago (I think). Also the state sponsored militias in the 80s shameful events.

I'm happy to elaborate if anyone is interested.
 
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Thanks for responding, I'm going to reply, although I'm conscious that a) this won't be formatted particularly well and b) you and others may be fed up with my stance on this. Hopefully you'll understand a bit more about my reason for wanting to provide balance given the antisemitic backlash that is happening right now in the UK.



On the suggestion that Germany ....
No not a joke. It was Germanys crime (not a strong enough word) against the Jews of Europe they should have had to pay. German population should have been moved out of an area in Germany and Jewish people settle there. As a Jewish state.

There were plenty of open spaces in 1945 that they could have housed the few remaining Jews - dachau, buchenwald, mauthausen - I'm pretty sure that Germany wasn't the country that these people would have wanted to reside.... anyway, this is a side point




My question asking about what Israel should be doing...
The fact is that this "round" did not start with the thousands if rocket being fired in to Israel. It started with Bibi being under pressure for being a corruption... um person. So he ordered things Like steainl Palestinians homes and calling a raid on a Mosque while people are praying... totally expecting and getting a reaction... do you really believe that is a coincidence?

"They started it..." OK...

But if the response, that is being (rightly) condemned, to the thousands of rockets is wrong - what should they do instead? Serious question. What would be the acceptable response from Israel?




On to your metaphor the little annoying pri ck didn't start hitting you In the bollo cks for no reason. Stop giving a reason to punch you in the bolloc ks and I will go round with you and give him a slap if he does it again.

Before this 'round', there have been plenty of back and forth 'strikes'... this goes back decades.




I know that the response will be: "but these people are acting out of desperation, so they're only kicking in order to get what they feel is rightfully theirs" ...
Hamas are c unts. There is no justified reason for targeting civilians. But I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) even they say they would recognise Israel and 1947 boarders (that's not reasonable 1967 is though imho).

You are wrong...hamas’s charter is the end of the state of Israel full stop, and I quote: "the obliteration or dissolution of Israel", then the end of the Jews - huge amount of violent language about the Jews in the hamas charter...




So, whilst all the reasonable people (me included by the way) want a two state solution......
Israel can get rid of hamas (relatively) quicky. Just allow the the Palestinian to have a better alternative. Hamas are not in control of the west bank so what's the deal there?

No they can't... and yes hamas are in the west bank too








Bibi distraction - he is far from being a saint, far, far, far but he is no worse than almost all other leaders across the world and better than a lot of his peers in the middle East. Is he using this as a distraction technique? Possibly. Wouldn't put it past him. Would I like a leader of Israel that puts an end to the whole conflict? Yes. But as mentioned above, its not as simple as it sounds
Bibi is a lot lot worse than a most of the leaders across the world. He really is. I really dont understand why you don't see that.

Disagree, don't think we're going to resolve this one





On the dispute over jerusalem - I don't think you're going to agree with my answer but here it is - this land has been 'owned' by many different peoples over the centuries, I don't know who should 'own' it now. I'd personally prefer it if nobody owned it and everyone just lived there peacefully, but as above, that doesn't sound likely. Your point I guess is that there were a group of people living there contentedly and some other people waged a war and took the land from them... that has happened a LOT across the planet. Israel took one square mile of land and the world is in uproar. Why is that? What is the affinity to the previous residents? I'd understand if you lived there or a member of your family, but I'm guessing that's not the case. For example, do you care that my great- grandparents generation were forcibly removed from Poland & Russia (the pogroms (see link)- this is not just about the nazis remember)? Should we be given back that land?
Yeah I care what happened to your great grandparents. I would care even more if it was happening today. Where did they go to by the way?
And yes if there is proof of ownership you should be given back land

The pogroms forced Jews from Eastern Europe to Western Europe, North America and South America.
What do you mean proof of ownership of land? This is my point... should they have a receipt or something? They lived there, were forcibly removed and nobody that was unrelated to it directly batted an eyelid. Why would they? It was just a bunch of dirty Jews being moved along....






What do I think of the attack of the Mosque on the holiest night for the Muslims? Terrible, disgusting but in the context of what is happening I'm guessing (I could be wrong), that there was a reason for this and it wasn't just "let's bomb some praying Muslims for bricks and giggles". Whether it be that hamas were hiding in the Mosque or whether there was intelligence that there was something being planned or executed in there at that moment I don't know. Either way, it was wrong, of course - but the question has to come with a bit of context.
You talk about context but then fill your answer with supposition WTF?

Not supposition... why would the Israeli military have attacked the Mosque in your opinion? If they wanted to randomly kill civilians, then I'd argue they could have killed a lot more people... they were clearly trying to remove a non-civilian target





Am I right wing? Nope, far from it. I hate war, I hate fighting, I hate capitalism and I'm in fact a socialist at heart. But I've been to Israel many times, and from what i know, this is not about the powerful dictator keeping the poor people in their place. It's about protecting themselves from the terrorists that want to wipe them off the face of the planet. If this could be ended tomorrow and hamas (the terrorist cell) were wiped out,
Again this is not just about hamas is it. hamas is not in control of people in the west bank is it? Why can't the people in the west bank vote for those who control the land, ie ISRAEL? and if Israel is not in control of the west bank (it is) then why is it building settlements there? I wouldnreally like you to answer that one


Hamas IS in the west bank but...The settlements are indefensible... its an attempt to undermine the people living there. This is the non-violent approach, as opposed to what is happening in gaza. I get why this is viewed poorly, but to be frank, this has been going on for a long time, why do people only care now?




Do you think that the present Israel government is far right? If not, why not? I think that the Israeli government are clams, but they are necessary clams. If they weren't, Israel would be gone and I would be witnessing the beginning of another attempt to wipe Jews off the face of the planet - see the above link to the Pogroms or look at the manifestos of hamas or the other terrorist cells operating in the middle East
I just disagree with this. I believe the people of Israel deserve a better government and better chance for peace.


I would love for there to be peace, but conceding land is sadly not the answer. People around the world should be rallying against hamas, and isis, and hezbollah, and Al qaeda - wipe them out and there can be peace in the middle East. Give up a tiny bit of land in Israel and the war will continue, just slightly nearer to the final solution...
 
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