Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Gutter Boy]

So, the phase 1 renationalisation of British Rail. A Brexit bonus?

 

[dawaxman]

I read this last night. Made me wonder, despite the somewhat inflammatory and skewed language used.

"Did you know that for the past three weeks Turkey has been engaged in a military assault on Iraqi Kurdistan? It’s been brutal. The Turks, who have one of the most powerful military forces on Earth, have used F-16s, F-4 Terminators and other terrifying hi-tech weaponry to pummel Kurdish positions in northern Iraq. Families have fled their homes in terror. Livelihoods have been destroyed.

‘Every day, every night… we are being bombed. Our lands are being destroyed. We cannot grow our crops’, says a Kurdish farmer.

It’s unclear how many people have died. According to Turkey, dozens of Kurdish people, mostly militants, apparently, have been killed or captured. Have you seen any big, rowdy protests in the UK about this worrying act of asymmetrical warfare? Have you seen any footballers wave the Kurdish flag in solidarity with displaced, terrified Kurds? Have you seen social media swamped by furious denunciations of the ‘bloodthirsty’ Turks and outpourings of love and concern for the brutalised Kurds?

I haven’t. I have seen all of that kind of stuff in relation to Israel, constantly, every minute of every day — loud and ever-more self-righteous condemnations of Israel for being a vile, evil, crime-committing nation, a pox on the Earth. But on Turkey’s latest assault on the Kurds? Nothing. Not a peep. Carry on, Turkey — no one’s watching. There’s a question that hangs like a long, dark shadow over Western leftists’ and liberals’ furious opposition to Israel, and I have never heard a satisfactory answer to it. It’s this: why do you hate Israel more than any other nation?

Why does Israeli militarism offend and horrify you more than Turkish militarism, or Saudi militarism, or American and British militarism for that matter? Why is it ‘genocide’ and ‘war crimes’ and ‘bloodletting’ when Israel takes action against Palestinian militants, but not when Turkey takes action against Kurdish militants? Seriously — what is the answer?

Turkey’s incursion into Iraqi Kurdistan is called Operation Claw-Lightning. It started on 23 April. It is part of Turkey’s long-running war with the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), the militant Kurdish organisation dedicated to creating an independent Kurdistan and based mainly in south-eastern Turkey and northern Iraq. Operation Claw-Lightning is a follow-up to Operation Claw, a Turkish onslaught in Iraqi Kurdistan that lasted from May 2019 to June 2020. Hundreds of people were killed or wounded in that operation. These operations, of course, are only the latest flare-ups in Turkey’s 40-year war with Kurdish militants, which has led to the deaths of around 20,000 Kurdish civilians and the destruction of between 2,500 and 4,000 Kurdish villages.

So where are the Kurdish flags on caring people’s social-media feeds? Why doesn’t Sky News have pained-looking reporters in Iraqi Kurdistan talking to families who have been displaced by the Turkish bombardment? Why haven’t tens of thousands of Brits taken to the streets to register their fury with Turkey, as they have done with Israel following its latest conflict with Hamas in Gaza?

The woke set’s myopic loathing for Israel really is extraordinary. We are so used to it now that we take it as normal. But it isn’t normal. There are military tensions and conflicts around the world that are causing great suffering — in Kurdistan, Yemen, Xinjiang — yet none of them triggers the rage reflex in virtuous Westerners anywhere near as much as Israel’s actions do.

Saudi Arabia can bomb a school bus and kill 40 children, as part of its brutal war in Yemen, and most Western campaigners don’t lose a wink of sleep. But Israel just has to start wheeling its military aircraft out of the hangar and they’re up at the crack of dawn on a Saturday, dusting down their Palestinian flags, putting the finishing touches to their ‘Israel is Evil’ placards, and taking to the streets in their tens of thousands to condemn this most wicked, genocidal, apartheid state.

On the rare occasion they do try to justify their feverish obsession with Israel, it just doesn’t add up. The Israel-Palestine conflict has been going on for decades and it’s really tragic, they say. And Israel is supported by our governments, so we have a responsibility to act, they insist. What’s more, Israel occupies Palestinian land and that just has to be challenged, they argue.

But all of these things can be said about Turkey versus Kurdistan. It’s a very old conflict. Turkey is a Western ally; it’s a member of Nato for heaven’s sake. And Turkey occupies what many, many people consider to be Kurdish land. So, again, answer this question: why does Israel offend you more than Turkey does?

To be clear, I am not comparing Israel to Turkey. Israel, unlike Turkey, faces an existential threat. It is surrounded by hostility. Hamas is an extremist Islamist movement whose founding charter was full of anti-Semitism. Hamas’s aim is less to build an independent nation state than to punish the Jews. It is currently firing hundreds of missiles directly into Israel.

Whatever one might think of the PKK, it isn’t doing any of these things right now. And yet Israel is loathed for defending itself from missiles fired by an anti-Jewish terrorist organisation, while Turkey is ignored despite continuing its long, ugly war with Kurdish forces.

It seems to me that, increasingly, there is nothing very rational or normal about the hatred for Israel that sporadically sweeps the West. Rather, Israel has become a whipping boy for the elites, a nation that has cynically been turned into the embodiment of evil by virtue-signalling Westerners in desperate need for an outlet for their rage and pontification.

If there is another, more convincing explanation for today’s furious anti-Israel sentiment I’d love to hear it. But until one is forthcoming, the rest of us will be justified in wondering if perhaps an old, dark hatred, whether wittingly or unwittingly, underpins the manic loathing of Israel."

Amazing. Can I ask where this is from please?

Also, to add, I spent a long time writing my post the other night and it has received no response. So can I assume I've convinced some of you to be a bit more balanced?

And one other thing - if people are serious about boycotting products and services from Israel (which is what happens intermittently around periods of conflict in Israel) here is a short list of just some of the incredible contribution that Israel has made to Western civilisation (by the way, I've seen mention of Jewish companies being boycotted as part of this 'action' - would love to know how that makes sense.....):

https://theculturetrip.com/middle-e...1-israeli-innovations-that-changed-the-world/

 

[LutonSpurs]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1395225975139430402

 

[LutonSpurs]

You want us to talk about other places where bad things are happening as this particular conflict is being spoken about too much?

 

[LutonSpurs]

Amazing. Can I ask where this is from please?

Also, to add, I spent a long time writing my post the other night and it has received no response. So can I assume I've convinced some of you to be a bit more balanced?

And one other thing - if people are serious about boycotting products and services from Israel (which is what happens intermittently around periods of conflict in Israel) here is a short list of just some of the incredible contribution that Israel has made to Western civilisation (by the way, I've seen mention of Jewish companies being boycotted as part of this 'action' - would love to know how that makes sense.....):

https://theculturetrip.com/middle-e...1-israeli-innovations-that-changed-the-world/

Here's a list of good things from Israel so please ignore the army killing babies?

 

[AuroRaman]

I read this last night. Made me wonder, despite the somewhat inflammatory and skewed language used.

"Did you know that for the past three weeks Turkey has been engaged in a military assault on Iraqi Kurdistan? It’s been brutal. The Turks, who have one of the most powerful military forces on Earth, have used F-16s, F-4 Terminators and other terrifying hi-tech weaponry to pummel Kurdish positions in northern Iraq. Families have fled their homes in terror. Livelihoods have been destroyed.

‘Every day, every night… we are being bombed. Our lands are being destroyed. We cannot grow our crops’, says a Kurdish farmer.

It’s unclear how many people have died. According to Turkey, dozens of Kurdish people, mostly militants, apparently, have been killed or captured. Have you seen any big, rowdy protests in the UK about this worrying act of asymmetrical warfare? Have you seen any footballers wave the Kurdish flag in solidarity with displaced, terrified Kurds? Have you seen social media swamped by furious denunciations of the ‘bloodthirsty’ Turks and outpourings of love and concern for the brutalised Kurds?

I haven’t. I have seen all of that kind of stuff in relation to Israel, constantly, every minute of every day — loud and ever-more self-righteous condemnations of Israel for being a vile, evil, crime-committing nation, a pox on the Earth. But on Turkey’s latest assault on the Kurds? Nothing. Not a peep. Carry on, Turkey — no one’s watching. There’s a question that hangs like a long, dark shadow over Western leftists’ and liberals’ furious opposition to Israel, and I have never heard a satisfactory answer to it. It’s this: why do you hate Israel more than any other nation?

Why does Israeli militarism offend and horrify you more than Turkish militarism, or Saudi militarism, or American and British militarism for that matter? Why is it ‘genocide’ and ‘war crimes’ and ‘bloodletting’ when Israel takes action against Palestinian militants, but not when Turkey takes action against Kurdish militants? Seriously — what is the answer?

Turkey’s incursion into Iraqi Kurdistan is called Operation Claw-Lightning. It started on 23 April. It is part of Turkey’s long-running war with the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), the militant Kurdish organisation dedicated to creating an independent Kurdistan and based mainly in south-eastern Turkey and northern Iraq. Operation Claw-Lightning is a follow-up to Operation Claw, a Turkish onslaught in Iraqi Kurdistan that lasted from May 2019 to June 2020. Hundreds of people were killed or wounded in that operation. These operations, of course, are only the latest flare-ups in Turkey’s 40-year war with Kurdish militants, which has led to the deaths of around 20,000 Kurdish civilians and the destruction of between 2,500 and 4,000 Kurdish villages.

So where are the Kurdish flags on caring people’s social-media feeds? Why doesn’t Sky News have pained-looking reporters in Iraqi Kurdistan talking to families who have been displaced by the Turkish bombardment? Why haven’t tens of thousands of Brits taken to the streets to register their fury with Turkey, as they have done with Israel following its latest conflict with Hamas in Gaza?

The woke set’s myopic loathing for Israel really is extraordinary. We are so used to it now that we take it as normal. But it isn’t normal. There are military tensions and conflicts around the world that are causing great suffering — in Kurdistan, Yemen, Xinjiang — yet none of them triggers the rage reflex in virtuous Westerners anywhere near as much as Israel’s actions do.

Saudi Arabia can bomb a school bus and kill 40 children, as part of its brutal war in Yemen, and most Western campaigners don’t lose a wink of sleep. But Israel just has to start wheeling its military aircraft out of the hangar and they’re up at the crack of dawn on a Saturday, dusting down their Palestinian flags, putting the finishing touches to their ‘Israel is Evil’ placards, and taking to the streets in their tens of thousands to condemn this most wicked, genocidal, apartheid state.

On the rare occasion they do try to justify their feverish obsession with Israel, it just doesn’t add up. The Israel-Palestine conflict has been going on for decades and it’s really tragic, they say. And Israel is supported by our governments, so we have a responsibility to act, they insist. What’s more, Israel occupies Palestinian land and that just has to be challenged, they argue.

But all of these things can be said about Turkey versus Kurdistan. It’s a very old conflict. Turkey is a Western ally; it’s a member of Nato for heaven’s sake. And Turkey occupies what many, many people consider to be Kurdish land. So, again, answer this question: why does Israel offend you more than Turkey does?

To be clear, I am not comparing Israel to Turkey. Israel, unlike Turkey, faces an existential threat. It is surrounded by hostility. Hamas is an extremist Islamist movement whose founding charter was full of anti-Semitism. Hamas’s aim is less to build an independent nation state than to punish the Jews. It is currently firing hundreds of missiles directly into Israel.

Whatever one might think of the PKK, it isn’t doing any of these things right now. And yet Israel is loathed for defending itself from missiles fired by an anti-Jewish terrorist organisation, while Turkey is ignored despite continuing its long, ugly war with Kurdish forces.

It seems to me that, increasingly, there is nothing very rational or normal about the hatred for Israel that sporadically sweeps the West. Rather, Israel has become a whipping boy for the elites, a nation that has cynically been turned into the embodiment of evil by virtue-signalling Westerners in desperate need for an outlet for their rage and pontification.

If there is another, more convincing explanation for today’s furious anti-Israel sentiment I’d love to hear it. But until one is forthcoming, the rest of us will be justified in wondering if perhaps an old, dark hatred, whether wittingly or unwittingly, underpins the manic loathing of Israel."

What’s the message here? Unless we are speaking out against all oppression, we shouldn’t speak up about any?

 

[Diamond Lights]

What’s the message here? Unless we are speaking out against all oppression, we shouldn’t speak up about any?

yes, seems to be a common trope from the right. Usually to deflect from you know, the actual points being made.

 

[JerusalemMan]

What’s the message here? Unless we are speaking out against all oppression, we shouldn’t speak up about any?

No. Though I appreciate that's a nice line to think I'm saying because it is a bad one.
More that, if you speak up loudly about one specific thing, please also speak up about others otherwise there's a terrifying double-standard at play.

 

[AuroRaman]

No. Though I appreciate that's a nice line to think I'm saying because it is a bad one.
More that, if you speak up loudly about one specific thing, please also speak up about others otherwise there's a terrifying double-standard at play.

I was referring to the article, not you.

Cool, so I’m guessing the author of this article is vegan? And spends a lot of their energy speaking out against all oppression? Because otherwise they’ve just posted a long-winded Twitter post from a flag nonce.

 

[AuroRaman]

yes, seems to be a common trope from the right. Usually to deflect from you know, the actual points being made.

I can’t give any credence to an article that uses oppression as a tool to have a whinge into the wind about ‘leftists and liberals’ and ‘the woke set’

 

[LutonSpurs]

No. Though I appreciate that's a nice line to think I'm saying because it is a bad one.
More that, if you speak up loudly about one specific thing, please also speak up about others otherwise there's a terrifying double-standard at play.

It doesn't work like that. All people can't and won't speak up against all injustices. It's an odd thing to ask people to do. People speak up about what they want to and can provide evidence why the cause they care about is real and needs attention.

For example I don't care about Arsenal being an awful club to its fans. I care about Spurs. I care about Luton town. I care about Yorkshire cricket club. fudge Lancs.

 

[SpurMeUp]

No. Though I appreciate that's a nice line to think I'm saying because it is a bad one.
More that, if you speak up loudly about one specific thing, please also speak up about others otherwise there's a terrifying double-standard at play.

I don’t think it’s even that. There is a question: why are people exercised over Israel-Palestine? What is it about this conflict that “disgusts” people (taking terms from here)? It is clear that much worse atrocities don’t exercise the same levels of concern or vitriol. So the implication is there is a subtle form of racism at play (as well as other factors as outlined previously like clearly defined in-groups).

It is true: sky don’t cover Syria or Kurds or Armenian atrocities, there isn’t the interest. But slap Israel on the news story, and people are all over it. The hunger for the narrative is already there in their minds. They don’t even stop to recognise this however. While literally millions of powerless lives are destroyed in Syria, people have a far greater concern for fewer people, with less problems, in the occupied territories. And as of yet none can tell you why that is.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[AuroRaman]

I don’t think it’s even that. There is a question: why are people exercised over Israel-Palestine? What is it about this conflict that “disgusts” people (taking terms from here)? It is clear that much worse atrocities don’t exercise the same levels of concern or vitriol. So the implication is there is a subtle form of racism at play (as well as other factors as outlined previously like clearly defined in-groups).

It is true: sky don’t cover Syria or Kurds or Armenian atrocities, there isn’t the interest. But slap Israel on the news story, and people are all over it. The hunger for the narrative is already there in their minds. They don’t even stop to recognise this however. While non-figuratively millions of powerless lives are destroyed in Syria, people have a far greater concern for fewer people, with less problems, in the occupied territories. And as of yet none can tell you why that is.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

The mass condemnation over Israel is relatively new. Before the general public were spoonfed the narrative of self-defence and 'Palestine terrorist bad' by Sky et al. And were quite blasé about the situation in the way you portray the supposed lack of outcry over Syria. But that narrative is being challenged due to the balance of reporting through social media and other channels which portray more of the truth than agenda. People don't like being lied to. The situation in Syria is under-reported and sadly not at the forefront of people's minds. It's really lazy and dangerous to bring out the 'but the children in Syria' argument though. The amount of times I've heard that over anything that challenges the general narrative is boring.

 

[JerusalemMan]

It doesn't work like that. All people can't and won't speak up against all injustices. It's an odd thing to ask people to do. People speak up about what they want to and can provide evidence why the cause they care about is real and needs attention.

For example I don't care about Arsenal being an awful club to its fans. I care about Spurs. I care about Luton town. I care about Yorkshire cricket club. fudge Lancs.

Not all. Just some. People absolutely have limited capacity to process the ills of the world, and there is much space for advocates of a sole issue. However the Israel-Palestine issue seems fascinating in that there are SO many who will stridently speak up about that when they are not Muslim or Jew, or linked to the conflict through family, yet have little to say about almost anything else.
When great numbers of people bang on only about one issue (which they have no direct personal attachment to, unlike the football club analogy) then it gets weird.

Totally agree about Yorkshire cricket though.

 

[JerusalemMan]

I can’t give any credence to an article that uses oppression as a tool to have a whinge into the wind about ‘leftists and liberals’ and ‘the woke set’

Ah yes. Of course you can't.
Why would you address an issue when the use of a few questionable words allows an easy reason to walk on by?

That may be unfair for me to say to you, but it absolutely is the attitude adopted by many and would be very fair to say to them.

 

[AuroRaman]

Ah yes. Of course you can't.
Why would you address an issue when the use of a few questionable words allows an easy reason to walk on by?

That may be unfair for me to say to you, but it absolutely is the attitude adopted by many and would be very fair to say to them.

Cry

 

[dawaxman]

Here's a list of good things from Israel so please ignore the army killing babies?

Not the point I was making and you know it

 

[SpurMeUp]

The mass condemnation over Israel is relatively new. Before the general public were spoonfed the narrative of self-defence and 'Palestine terrorist bad' by Sky et al. And were quite blasé about the situation in the way you portray the supposed lack of outcry over Syria. But that narrative is being challenged due to the balance of reporting through social media and other channels which portray more of the truth than agenda. People don't like being lied to. The situation in Syria is under-reported and sadly not at the forefront of people's minds. It's really lazy and dangerous to bring out the 'but the children in Syria' argument though. The amount of times I've heard that over anything that challenges the general narrative is boring.

Isn’t it “lazy and dangerous” to ignore the 20,000 kids killed in Syria!!?

20,000 is just a number but post some images of Palestinian kids and really get into the narrative. What you shouldn’t do is question things?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[AuroRaman]

Isn’t it “lazy and dangerous” to ignore the 20,000 kids killed in Syria!!?

20,000 is just a number but post some images of Palestinian kids and really get into the narrative. What you shouldn’t do is question things?

Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Always happy to question things. But as a general rule (and this is absolutely not aimed at you), when someone trots out the 'kids in Syria' line, they do not in fact care about the kids in Syria over protecting long held preconceptions and narratives.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Always happy to question things. But as a general rule (and this is absolutely not aimed at you), when someone trots out the 'kids in Syria' line, they do not in fact care about the kids in Syria over protecting long held preconceptions and narratives.

One atrocity of course doesn’t justify another. But Jews may have a point, they do get singled out and a lot of flack. And as we know with racism based on skin colour in the US, pre-judgments (aka prejudice) are subtle and highly affective. Personally I always felt Israel should act as the responsible party, and do a lot more to build bridges and peace. Economic investment, and cooperation across the divide is the answer.

Europe had some of the bloodiest wars and feuds many lasting centuries! For 1000+ years Europeans have massacred each other. Brutal wars that make Palestine look friendly. Only since WWII has there been sustained peace in Europe (with the exception of Yugoslavia). Now the nations trade and work together.

To get there, we need people to understand things from both sides, not choose a side and inflame injustice.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app