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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Answers in bold.

Additional questions that you put up to others answering the questions you posed.

IRON DROME.

Completely understand the need for it. In fact I wish it was more effective. Genuinely.

Should Turks still control the region?

Obviously not now. But I suggest you do some research. When there was extreme persecution of Jews all over Europe and Russia the Ottoman empire welcomed Jewish people in. The most famous example is from Spain but there have been many through history.

The Turks are not the bad guys that media makes out.

Now that I have answered your questions honestly could please answer mine?

Do you think that Bibi's corruption probe has been aided by the distraction of what is going on now?

Do you think the displacement of Palestinians from their homes in East JERUSALEM is right? How can that be justified?

What do you think of the attack of the Mosque on the holiest night for the Muslims?

Are you right wing?

Do you think that the present Israel government is far right? If not, why not?

What do you think of Bibi?

How would you resolve the conflict?

FYI and this is a massive generalisation (so forgive me) but all things being equal I would back Jewish people over Arabs, I genuinely would. I have more positive experience with Jewish people. And the Turk in me has not forgiven the Arabs for how they turned on the Ottomans.

And if the situation was reversed I would 400% be backing the Jewish state. In fact some of the people I speak to think I am actually pro Israel.

The sad thing is though 2,000 years of history, Christians, Jews and Muslims have largely lived side by side as in the ottoman empire. The empire was inclusive before people knew what the word meant. Unlike the Roman or British empire, the Ottoman empire lasted almost 1000 years. Crazy eh!? Incidentally, the way a new Sultan came to power may have a lot to do with their longevity. Ti become Sultan you had to be clever, ruthless, have a connected mum, and probaly kill some of your half-brothers.

Jews used to live throughout the middle east. Sadly most were ostracised from their homes in the middle east. Similar has happened to Christian communities in the middle east. The Copts of Cairo just about hang on, but they are persecuted. Why can't people of the Book respect each other? I just don't get it.
 
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The sad thing is though 2,000 years of history, Christians, Jews and Muslims have largely lived side by side as in the ottoman empire. The empire was inclusive before people knew what the word meant. Unlike the Roman or British empire, the Ottoman empire lasted almost 1000 years. Crazy eh!? Incidentally, the way a new Sultan came to power may have a lot to do with their longevity. Ti become Sultan you had to be clever, ruthless, have a connected mum, and probaly kill some of your half-brothers.

Jews used to live throughout the middle east. Sadly most were ostracised from their homes in the middle east. Similar has happened to Christian communities in the middle east. The Copts of Cairo just about hang on, but they are persecuted. Why can't people of the Book respect each other? I just don't get it.

The ottomans were not angels by any measurement. But if you paid your taxes and didn't rebel, then in general you were free to practise your religion customs and language. Jewish people were protected within the empire but so were Christians. More so than the modern middle east.
 
Answers in bold.

Additional questions that you put up to others answering the questions you posed.

IRON DROME.

Completely understand the need for it. In fact I wish it was more effective. Genuinely.

Should Turks still control the region?

Obviously not now. But I suggest you do some research. When there was extreme persecution of Jews all over Europe and Russia the Ottoman empire welcomed Jewish people in. The most famous example is from Spain but there have been many through history.

The Turks are not the bad guys that media makes out.

Now that I have answered your questions honestly could please answer mine?

Do you think that Bibi's corruption probe has been aided by the distraction of what is going on now?

Do you think the displacement of Palestinians from their homes in East JERUSALEM is right? How can that be justified?

What do you think of the attack of the Mosque on the holiest night for the Muslims?

Are you right wing?

Do you think that the present Israel government is far right? If not, why not?

What do you think of Bibi?

How would you resolve the conflict?

FYI and this is a massive generalisation (so forgive me) but all things being equal I would back Jewish people over Arabs, I genuinely would. I have more positive experience with Jewish people. And the Turk in me has not forgiven the Arabs for how they turned on the Ottomans.

And if the situation was reversed I would 400% be backing the Jewish state. In fact some of the people I speak to think I am actually pro Israel.

Thank you for your answers

On the suggestion that Germany should have been the location for the home of the persecuted Jews, I'm not sure if that was supposed to be a joke, but I don't think that would have been appropriate

My question asking about what Israel should be doing, I think maybe my question was poorly worded. What I meant to ask was, how do you think Israel should respond to the 1,000+ rockets being fired into Israel in this current conflict. I'm not disagreeing that there is an imbalance in power, I'm asking what you think would be an appropriate response. There seems to be universal condemnation of what they're doing (which I absolutely concede is fair), but this is war unfortunately. So, a metaphor could be, if a smaller-than-average person purposely keeps kicking a clearly capable fighter below the belt again and again and again, would you not expect him to eventually punch that person back? I know it's a pretty poor metaphor, but it's trying to highlight the "fudged if you do, fudged if you don't" situation.

I know that the response will be: "but these people are acting out of desperation, so they're only kicking in order to get what they feel is rightfully theirs" but here is where it gets tricky, because the actual people firing the rockets towards Israel are proclaiming that all they want is the death of all Jews and the end of the state of Israel... so, conceding to the poor civilians (who are unwitting pawns in all of this, lambs to the slaughter for all hamas care) results in hamas gaining more control and more leverage in gaining their end goal (they're not hiding this fact by the way)...

So, whilst all the reasonable people (me included by the way) want a two state solution,
the Israeli government have danced this dance several times over the decades and they know that it's not a two state solution that is wanted by hamas. Fixing this for the people in gaza and the west bank is complicated by the involvement of a bunch of people who will take advantage of any concession whatsoever

I know there's a lot of supposition in there, but the one thing that everybody seems to be glossing over here is that hamas are involved - a known terrorist cell who want to end Israel and all of the Jews......

On the Turks question, that wasn't me that asked that

Bibi distraction - he is far from being a saint, far, far, far but he is no worse than almost all other leaders across the world and better than a lot of his peers in the middle East. Is he using this as a distraction technique? Possibly. Wouldn't put it past him. Would I like a leader of Israel that puts an end to the whole conflict? Yes. But as mentioned above, its not as simple as it sounds

On the dispute over jerusalem - I don't think you're going to agree with my answer but here it is - this land has been 'owned' by many different peoples over the centuries, I don't know who should 'own' it now. I'd personally prefer it if nobody owned it and everyone just lived there peacefully, but as above, that doesn't sound likely. Your point I guess is that there were a group of people living there contentedly and some other people waged a war and took the land from them... that has happened a LOT across the planet. Israel took one square mile of land and the world is in uproar. Why is that? What is the affinity to the previous residents? I'd understand if you lived there or a member of your family, but I'm guessing that's not the case. For example, do you care that my great- grandparents generation were forcibly removed from Poland & Russia (the pogroms (see link)- this is not just about the nazis remember)? Should we be given back that land?

What do I think of the attack of the Mosque on the holiest night for the Muslims? Terrible, disgusting but in the context of what is happening I'm guessing (I could be wrong), that there was a reason for this and it wasn't just "let's bomb some praying Muslims for bricks and giggles". Whether it be that hamas were hiding in the Mosque or whether there was intelligence that there was something being planned or executed in there at that moment I don't know. Either way, it was wrong, of course - but the question has to come with a bit of context.

Am I right wing? Nope, far from it. I hate war, I hate fighting, I hate capitalism and I'm in fact a socialist at heart. But I've been to Israel many times, and from what i know, this is not about the powerful dictator keeping the poor people in their place. It's about protecting themselves from the terrorists that want to wipe them off the face of the planet. If this could be ended tomorrow and hamas (the terrorist cell) were wiped out, I'd be thrilled

Do you think that the present Israel government is far right? If not, why not? I think that the Israeli government are clams, but they are necessary clams. If they weren't, Israel would be gone and I would be witnessing the beginning of another attempt to wipe Jews off the face of the planet - see the above link to the Pogroms or look at the manifestos of hamas or the other terrorist cells operating in the middle East

What do you think of Bibi? See above

How would you resolve the conflict? fudge knows. It's a mess, an almighty mess. Both sides have their reasons for doing what they are doing and BOTH should be condemned for their actions. The reason I started posting on here about this topic is to promote a debate and not for people to condemn Israel without recognising the bad from the other side too



FYI and this is a massive generalisation (so forgive me) but all things being equal I would back Jewish people over Arabs, I genuinely would. I have more positive experience with Jewish people. And the Turk in me has not forgiven the Arabs for how they turned on the Ottomans.

Not sure how to respond to this other than to say:
1. It's a similar concern that is what is preventing this conflict being resolved. A huge lack of trust, in both sides
2. We're talking about this, I hope you're reading my posts with an open mind - and that's the first step to resolving any issue, an open conversation
3. If you haven't watched it already, I highly recommend Fauda. It depicts the situation in Israel perfectly, it shows both sides of the story well - it's on netflix
 
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Thank you for your answers

On the suggestion that Germany should have been the location for the home of the persecuted Jews, I'm not sure if that was supposed to be a joke, but I don't think that would have been appropriate

My question asking about what Israel should be doing, I think maybe my question was poorly worded. What I meant to ask was, how do you think Israel should respond to the 1,000+ rockets being fired into Israel in this current conflict. I'm not disagreeing that there is an imbalance in power, I'm asking what you think would be an appropriate response. There seems to be universal condemnation of what they're doing (which I absolutely concede is fair), but this is war unfortunately. So, a metaphor could be, if a smaller-than-average person purposely keeps kicking a clearly capable fighter below the belt again and again and again, would you not expect him to eventually punch that person back? I know it's a pretty poor metaphor, but it's trying to highlight the "fudged if you do, fudged if you don't" situation.

I know that the response will be: "but these people are acting out of desperation, so they're only kicking in order to get what they feel is rightfully theirs" but here is where it gets tricky, because the actual people firing the rockets towards Israel are proclaiming that all they want is the death of all Jews and the end of the state of Israel... so, conceding to the poor civilians (who are unwitting pawns in all of this, lambs to the slaughter for all hamas care) results in hamas gaining more control and more leverage in gaining their end goal (they're not hiding this fact by the way)...

So, whilst all the reasonable people (me included by the way) want a two state solution,
the Israeli government have danced this dance several times over the decades and they know that it's not a two state solution that is wanted by hamas. Fixing this for the people in gaza and the west bank is complicated by the involvement of a bunch of people who will take advantage of any concession whatsoever

I know there's a lot of supposition in there, but the one thing that everybody seems to be glossing over here is that hamas are involved - a known terrorist cell who want to end Israel and all of the Jews......

On the Turks question, that wasn't me that asked that

Bibi distraction - he is far from being a saint, far, far, far but he is no worse than almost all other leaders across the world and better than a lot of his peers in the middle East. Is he using this as a distraction technique? Possibly. Wouldn't put it past him. Would I like a leader of Israel that puts an end to the whole conflict? Yes. But as mentioned above, its not as simple as it sounds

On the dispute over jerusalem - I don't think you're going to agree with my answer but here it is - this land has been 'owned' by many different peoples over the centuries, I don't know who should 'own' it now. I'd personally prefer it if nobody owned it and everyone just lived there peacefully, but as above, that doesn't sound likely. Your point I guess is that there were a group of people living there contentedly and some other people waged a war and took the land from them... that has happened a LOT across the planet. Israel took one square mile of land and the world is in uproar. Why is that? What is the affinity to the previous residents? I'd understand if you lived there or a member of your family, but I'm guessing that's not the case. For example, do you care that my great- grandparents generation were forcibly removed from Poland & Russia (the pogroms (see link)- this is not just about the nazis remember)? Should we be given back that land?

What do I think of the attack of the Mosque on the holiest night for the Muslims? Terrible, disgusting but in the context of what is happening I'm guessing (I could be wrong), that there was a reason for this and it wasn't just "let's bomb some praying Muslims for bricks and giggles". Whether it be that hamas were hiding in the Mosque or whether there was intelligence that there was something being planned or executed in there at that moment I don't know. Either way, it was wrong, of course - but the question has to come with a bit of context.

Am I right wing? Nope, far from it. I hate war, I hate fighting, I hate capitalism and I'm in fact a socialist at heart. But I've been to Israel many times, and from what i know, this is not about the powerful dictator keeping the poor people in their place. It's about protecting themselves from the terrorists that want to wipe them off the face of the planet. If this could be ended tomorrow and hamas (the terrorist cell) were wiped out, I'd be thrilled

Do you think that the present Israel government is far right? If not, why not? I think that the Israeli government are clams, but they are necessary clams. If they weren't, Israel would be gone and I would be witnessing the beginning of another attempt to wipe Jews off the face of the planet - see the above link to the Pogroms or look at the manifestos of hamas or the other terrorist cells operating in the middle East

What do you think of Bibi? See above

How would you resolve the conflict? fudge knows. It's a mess, an almighty mess. Both sides have their reasons for doing what they are doing and BOTH should be condemned for their actions. The reason I started posting on here about this topic is to promote a debate and not for people to condemn Israel without recognising the bad from the other side too



FYI and this is a massive generalisation (so forgive me) but all things being equal I would back Jewish people over Arabs, I genuinely would. I have more positive experience with Jewish people. And the Turk in me has not forgiven the Arabs for how they turned on the Ottomans.

Not sure how to respond to this other than to say:
1. It's a similar concern that is what is preventing this conflict being resolved. A huge lack of trust, in both sides
2. We're talking about this, I hope you're reading my posts with an open mind - and that's the first step to resolving any issue, an open conversation
3. If you haven't watched it already, I highly recommend Fauda. It depicts the situation in Israel perfectly, it shows both sides of the story well - it's on netflix

Wow.
 
Is Isreal different from apartheid South Africa? :rolleyes: Black people couldn't vote in South Africa. They had no representation in government. This is an illustration of how people twist and gas off Isreal in their social media sandboxes. Read the Amnesty link above and you can see exactly what the wrongs committed are. Then have a look at Syria's Amnesty report. Isreal's neighbour, where 6 million people have been displaced. Six million - more than the whole Palestinian population. 20,000 children murdered. Half million killed. Whole cities and communities levelled and wiped out. Refugees who have no place to go and no prospects. But because there isn't an evil Isreal to bounce the narrative off, no one gives. Why is that?
Vastly different, but the ability to vote is not what defines a state engaging in acts of apartheid. The systematic oppression of one group over another is the crux of it and that is on display here. Anyway, I'm not going to get bogged down in definitions or the semantics of this. I will say however that I have noticed prominent politicians and media figures are openly calling it that, something that would have been a bridge too far not that long ago. Apartheid as you correctly imply is a loaded word, but maybe the shock value of using it now is required to change the ground rules at this point.

Syria is a whole different ballgame and deserves its own discussion, but that is not what I am talking about.
 
Syria was Assad committing genocide against his own people. Especially the Sunni population as Bashaar is an Alawi (Shia sect). Iran and Russia provided support on one side. Qatar and Turkey did the other. And it was as a result of the Arab spring with people calling for the over throw of a dictator. It also led to the growth of isis and AQ and spilled over in to Iraq. There was displacement of masses of folk. Chemical weapons used. Genocide.

In my echo chamber the noise against Syria was pretty loud. I do agree that the anti imperialist left were split. Some found it hard to criticise a baathist (Arab communism) and it made me sick. The same left is noisy about Palestine.

Why the reaction against the crimes of Assad need to be compared to the reaction against Israeli agrees soon baffles me. I mean look at Myanmar and Uighyurs and Central African Republic. Look at my homeland of Kashmir. All these are issues. Today's big issue is Gaza and West Bank.
 
Vastly different, but the ability to vote is not what defines a state engaging in acts of apartheid. The systematic oppression of one group over another is the crux of it and that is on display here. Anyway, I'm not going to get bogged down in definitions or the semantics of Derp I will say however that I have noticed prominent politicians and media figures are openly calling it that, something that would have been a bridge too far not that long ago. Apartheid as you correctly imply is a loaded word, but maybe the shock value of using it now is required to change the ground rules at this point.

I would agree with that.

Apartheid is from Afrikaans and south Africa? Separate toilets for black and white, separate restaurants, beaches etc. Southern US states were also like this not all that long ago. I don't know a lot about modern Isreal but the actions in the occupied territories are different to say life in Tel Aviv, which is pretty heterogeneous, with inter-ethnic social relations not dissimilar to here. Of course, it is not like that everywhere. The Israeli settlers are all a bit bonkers, use religious doctrine to justify their worldview and taking over. They are essentially on a modern-day crusade. Add into that those on the opposition side who are having a holy war and any rational progress is hard to make. I find the whole thing deeply frustrating because it needn't be like that and Isreal is more than the conflict. There have been highly progressive Israeli politicians who 'got it' who didn't want Isreal abusing its neighbours (and genetic brothers). Sadly the movement towards the right in recent years is evident. The land grab by Isreal is hard to justify. You could say at least there isn't the number of deaths we see in other wars in the area, the abuse is subtle and aimed at increasing Israel's footprint.

Syria is a whole different ballgame and deserves its own discussion, but that is not what I am talking about.
No one is.
 
Why do you think that is?

Syria was Assad committing genocide against his own people. Especially the Sunni population as Bashaar is an Alawi (Shia sect). Iran and Russia provided support on one side. Qatar and Turkey did the other. And it was as a result of the Arab spring with people calling for the over throw of a dictator. It also led to the growth of isis and AQ and spilled over in to Iraq. There was displacement of masses of folk. Chemical weapons used. Genocide.

In my echo chamber the noise against Syria was pretty loud. I do agree that the anti imperialist left were split. Some found it hard to criticise a baathist (Arab communism) and it made me sick. The same left is noisy about Palestine.

Why the reaction against the crimes of Assad need to be compared to the reaction against Israeli agrees soon baffles me. I mean look at Myanmar and Uighyurs and Central African Republic. Look at my homeland of Kashmir. All these are issues. Today's big issue is Gaza and West Bank.

Because Syria is so messy it is harder to get a quick idea of good and bad. We're on a footy forum and Israel-Palestine appeals to our tribal tendencies. It is quite clean to comprehend - two sides. One with money and the other without. Syria is all the complexity you said above and a lot more. The British were funding jihadists to overthrow Assad, while our secrete services were saying - stick with Assad the Baathist party are bad but are better bet than anarchy. Assad took the hypocritic oath. He lived and trained in the UK. He is rational and was open to working with the west. After Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya you'd have thought we would have learnt our lesson. Blair takes all sorts of flack for backing the US in Iraq, but Cameron and Hilary Clinton seem to get no criticism for their role in de-stabilising Lybia and turning it into a failed state; or helping to ignite the horrors of the Syrian war which achieved nothing. Syria hints at the complexity of the middle east. You had enemies funding the same sides in Syria, the west funding jihadist groups only to then attack them. Turkey attacking Kurds who the west was also backing etc. etc. In short, there was no simple Spurs and Arsenal, Isreal vs Palestine (trying to part answer AuroRaman's question).

Syria is more relevant to Isreal than Myanmar etc as it borders Isreal, it housed many Palestinian refugees, was backing Hamas and Hezbullah against Isreal, and it was a war we had a hand in. Fighting continues to this day, not that you'd know it. It also hints at the complexity of the middle east. And maybe it also shows that outrage at Isreal is not just about lives destroyed because if it were people would focus on the multiple times more suffering next door to Isreal. There are hundreds of thousands of displaced people with no prospects, no home and no attention. After helping to destroy a nation, at least us Brits show some humanity and throw some (token) assistance https://www.gov.uk/government/news/syria-refugees-what-you-can-do-to-help--2

To our credit that Government page has some care and warmth. I like the idea that people with spare homes could house refugees. I wonder if that is still a thing?
 
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Because Syria is so messy it is harder to get a quick idea of good and bad. We're on a footy forum and Israel-Palestine appeals to our tribal tendencies. It is quite clean to comprehend - two sides. One with money and the other without. Syria is all the complexity you said above and a lot more. The British were funding jihadists to overthrow Assad, while our secrete services were saying - stick with Assad the Baathist party are bad but are better bet than anarchy. Assad took the hypocritic oath. He lived and trained in the UK. He is rational and was open to working with the west. After Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya you'd have thought we would have learnt our lesson. Blair takes all sorts of flack for backing the US in Iraq, but Cameron and Hilary Clinton seem to get no criticism for their role in de-stabilising Lybia and turning it into a failed state; or helping to ignite the horrors of the Syrian war which achieved nothing. Syria hints at the complexity of the middle east. You had enemies funding the same sides in Syria, the west funding jihadist groups only to then attack them. Turkey attacking Kurds who the west was also backing etc. etc. In short, there was no simple Spurs and Arsenal, Isreal vs Palestine (trying to part answer AuroRaman's question).

Syria is more relevant to Isreal than Myanmar etc as it borders Isreal, it housed many Palestinian refugees, was backing Hamas and Hezbullah against Isreal, and it was a war we had a hand in. Fighting continues to this day, not that you'd know it. It also hints at the complexity of the middle east. And maybe it also shows that outrage at Isreal is not just about lives destroyed because if it were people would focus on the multiple times more suffering next door to Isreal. There are hundreds of thousands of displaced people with no prospects, no home and no attention. After helping to destroy a nation, at least us Brits show some humanity and throw some (token) assistance https://www.gov.uk/government/news/syria-refugees-what-you-can-do-to-help--2

To our credit that Government page has some care and warmth. I like the idea that people with spare homes could house refugees. I wonder if that is still a thing?

The warmth to refugess is not reflected in the intake of those displaced unfortunately.

But I assure you the convo about Syria when the genocide was at it's height was really really noisy in Muslim and Arab circles. It has quitened down now admittedly and that is a tragedy in itself.

See back in 2015 when this was dicussed right here - https://www.glory-glory.co.uk/community/threads/politics-politics-politics.6328/page-94#post-736522
 
Thank you for your answers



So, whilst all the reasonable people (me included by the way) want a two state solution,
the Israeli government have danced this dance several times over the decades and they know that it's not a two state solution that is wanted by hamas. Fixing this for the people in gaza and the west bank is complicated by the involvement of a bunch of people who will take advantage of any concession whatsoever



Bibi distraction - he is far from being a saint, far, far, far but he is no worse than almost all other leaders across the world and better than a lot of his peers in the middle East. Is he using this as a distraction technique? Possibly. Wouldn't put it past him. Would I like a leader of Israel that puts an end to the whole conflict? Yes. But as mentioned above, its not as simple as it sounds

Hamas doesn't want a 2 state solution but if there was a viable ('67 borders?) 2 state solution giving Gaza and the West Bank proper connectivity and allowing meaningful economic development and relationships then Hamas would be irrelevant within less than a generation. The current Israeli response legitimizes Hamas and maintains their relevance (which also plays into the hands of Bibi and the right wing of the greater Zionist movement) - win-win for the nutters and a big loss for everyone else.

Bibi is worse than a lot of other global leaders. To give him any sort of pass is poor - he has blood on his hands, international war crimes, corruption the works. He 'happily' signs off on deliberate violence and death and destruction to maintain his political power. He has had no interest in a brokered peace deal because it hasn't been in his interest. The deaths of Israeli, Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians and others are on his head as much if not more than anyone else in the region. Beyond those he has deliberately targeted, he could have done something positive but has chosen not to. Yes numerous other world leaders are equally bad but out of the 190+ or so current leaders, let alone leaders of the last 20 years, he is up there with all the villains who haven't committed genocide.
 
So, the Govt are literally making it up as they go along as to why they didn't Red List India sooner, now that variant is spreading in the UK literally ruining the chances of our freeing up society and er... no one fancies holding the Tories to account again? cool.
 
So, the Govt are non-figuratively making it up as they go along as to why they didn't Red List India sooner, now that variant is spreading in the UK non-figuratively ruining the chances of our freeing up society and er... no one fancies holding the Tories to account again? cool.

They didn't red list India due to the trade deal. No doubt. But I would argue that the spread of the virus seems to be fairly well controlled. I can't see the 21st being impacted by this in any way.
 
So, the Govt are non-figuratively making it up as they go along as to why they didn't Red List India sooner, now that variant is spreading in the UK non-figuratively ruining the chances of our freeing up society and er... no one fancies holding the Tories to account again? cool.

What passes me off is we were all saying the same thing.
 
I read this last night. Made me wonder, despite the somewhat inflammatory and skewed language used.

"Did you know that for the past three weeks Turkey has been engaged in a military assault on Iraqi Kurdistan? It’s been brutal. The Turks, who have one of the most powerful military forces on Earth, have used F-16s, F-4 Terminators and other terrifying hi-tech weaponry to pummel Kurdish positions in northern Iraq. Families have fled their homes in terror. Livelihoods have been destroyed.

‘Every day, every night… we are being bombed. Our lands are being destroyed. We cannot grow our crops’, says a Kurdish farmer.

It’s unclear how many people have died. According to Turkey, dozens of Kurdish people, mostly militants, apparently, have been killed or captured. Have you seen any big, rowdy protests in the UK about this worrying act of asymmetrical warfare? Have you seen any footballers wave the Kurdish flag in solidarity with displaced, terrified Kurds? Have you seen social media swamped by furious denunciations of the ‘bloodthirsty’ Turks and outpourings of love and concern for the brutalised Kurds?

I haven’t. I have seen all of that kind of stuff in relation to Israel, constantly, every minute of every day — loud and ever-more self-righteous condemnations of Israel for being a vile, evil, crime-committing nation, a pox on the Earth. But on Turkey’s latest assault on the Kurds? Nothing. Not a peep. Carry on, Turkey — no one’s watching. There’s a question that hangs like a long, dark shadow over Western leftists’ and liberals’ furious opposition to Israel, and I have never heard a satisfactory answer to it. It’s this: why do you hate Israel more than any other nation?

Why does Israeli militarism offend and horrify you more than Turkish militarism, or Saudi militarism, or American and British militarism for that matter? Why is it ‘genocide’ and ‘war crimes’ and ‘bloodletting’ when Israel takes action against Palestinian militants, but not when Turkey takes action against Kurdish militants? Seriously — what is the answer?

Turkey’s incursion into Iraqi Kurdistan is called Operation Claw-Lightning. It started on 23 April. It is part of Turkey’s long-running war with the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), the militant Kurdish organisation dedicated to creating an independent Kurdistan and based mainly in south-eastern Turkey and northern Iraq. Operation Claw-Lightning is a follow-up to Operation Claw, a Turkish onslaught in Iraqi Kurdistan that lasted from May 2019 to June 2020. Hundreds of people were killed or wounded in that operation. These operations, of course, are only the latest flare-ups in Turkey’s 40-year war with Kurdish militants, which has led to the deaths of around 20,000 Kurdish civilians and the destruction of between 2,500 and 4,000 Kurdish villages.

So where are the Kurdish flags on caring people’s social-media feeds? Why doesn’t Sky News have pained-looking reporters in Iraqi Kurdistan talking to families who have been displaced by the Turkish bombardment? Why haven’t tens of thousands of Brits taken to the streets to register their fury with Turkey, as they have done with Israel following its latest conflict with Hamas in Gaza?

The woke set’s myopic loathing for Israel really is extraordinary. We are so used to it now that we take it as normal. But it isn’t normal. There are military tensions and conflicts around the world that are causing great suffering — in Kurdistan, Yemen, Xinjiang — yet none of them triggers the rage reflex in virtuous Westerners anywhere near as much as Israel’s actions do.

Saudi Arabia can bomb a school bus and kill 40 children, as part of its brutal war in Yemen, and most Western campaigners don’t lose a wink of sleep. But Israel just has to start wheeling its military aircraft out of the hangar and they’re up at the crack of dawn on a Saturday, dusting down their Palestinian flags, putting the finishing touches to their ‘Israel is Evil’ placards, and taking to the streets in their tens of thousands to condemn this most wicked, genocidal, apartheid state.

On the rare occasion they do try to justify their feverish obsession with Israel, it just doesn’t add up. The Israel-Palestine conflict has been going on for decades and it’s really tragic, they say. And Israel is supported by our governments, so we have a responsibility to act, they insist. What’s more, Israel occupies Palestinian land and that just has to be challenged, they argue.

But all of these things can be said about Turkey versus Kurdistan. It’s a very old conflict. Turkey is a Western ally; it’s a member of Nato for heaven’s sake. And Turkey occupies what many, many people consider to be Kurdish land. So, again, answer this question: why does Israel offend you more than Turkey does?

To be clear, I am not comparing Israel to Turkey. Israel, unlike Turkey, faces an existential threat. It is surrounded by hostility. Hamas is an extremist Islamist movement whose founding charter was full of anti-Semitism. Hamas’s aim is less to build an independent nation state than to punish the Jews. It is currently firing hundreds of missiles directly into Israel.

Whatever one might think of the PKK, it isn’t doing any of these things right now. And yet Israel is loathed for defending itself from missiles fired by an anti-Jewish terrorist organisation, while Turkey is ignored despite continuing its long, ugly war with Kurdish forces.

It seems to me that, increasingly, there is nothing very rational or normal about the hatred for Israel that sporadically sweeps the West. Rather, Israel has become a whipping boy for the elites, a nation that has cynically been turned into the embodiment of evil by virtue-signalling Westerners in desperate need for an outlet for their rage and pontification.

If there is another, more convincing explanation for today’s furious anti-Israel sentiment I’d love to hear it. But until one is forthcoming, the rest of us will be justified in wondering if perhaps an old, dark hatred, whether wittingly or unwittingly, underpins the manic loathing of Israel."
 
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