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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

SpurMeUp said:
Maybe you should have. It might have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. The UK government backed the fall of the Syrian regime and fundamentalist groups to take them down. Syria still has Assad and the Bathist party in power. There was a debate to be had - especially as our government were involved - few were interested to have it - that is the point.


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Why should I have?
 
AuroRaman said:
We clearly aren't viewing the same news outlets. I've yet to see this widespread coverage and condemnation of Israel's actions by UK media outlets. I have seen much more on social media if that's what you mean?

I would say our involvement in Syria probably deadened any meaningful discussion or discourse in the media. Again, in the wider public I have witnessed much more condemnation and concern.
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Yes media as in here and social media.

It is frankly shameful that we repeated the mistakes of Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq in Syria which had such huge ramifications for so many peoples lives. These are forgotten people, largely. The global powers screwed the Syrian people and no one much cared. To our credit I think our parliament didn’t approve us putting boots on the ground in Syria when Cameron brought it to parliament.

No doubt the media is not impartial I agree. Newsnight is maybe an exception.

Maybe mainstream media should be reporting and condemning Israel’s heavy handedness, there is no doubt that Israel is often oppressive but it is a very complex situation where Hamas is out to kill as many Israelis as they can. The left in Israel want two states and peace, while the nut job Israeli fantastics are beyond hope just like Hamas. That is why Rabins assassination (by an Israeli) was so tragic. He and Arafat had brought together Hamas and Israel and reached agreement. And while there were still suicide bombs killing Israelis, there was otherwise peace and the prospect of respectful progress.


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AuroRaman said:
I'm curious to understand why any discussion about Israel and/or the government's actions consistently descends into a debate in whataboutery regarding other atrocities? It doesn't happen the other way round in my experience?
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One does not justify the other. My point is people get really worked up by Palestine. Maybe because there is an oppressive element to it which stokes our sense of injustice. But lay it out in the cold light of day and the evil in somewhere like Syria was far greater. It involved us - our democratically elected UK government - yet few invested in understanding it or cared. They do care about Israel’s actions tho - deeply.


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By the way one other complexity to the Syria conflict is that the Syrian regime were allies with Hamas, Iran and Hezbollah. They backed Palestine against Israel and there were many Palestine refugees in Syria. Israel was probably pro removing Assad. As were the Saudis who wanted to undermine Iran’s dominance. All these players were funding the conflict though their secret services.

Israel is isolated with few local allies. The Middle East is hugely messy and complex. Yet people watch a few social media vids and jump to conclusions often without reading up on the history.


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SpurMeUp said:
By the way one other complexity to the Syria conflict is that the Syrian regime were allies with Hamas, Iran and Hezbollah. They backed Palestine against Israel and there were many Palestine refugees in Syria. Israel was probably pro removing Assad. As were the Saudis who wanted to undermine Iran’s dominance. All these players were funding the conflict though their secret services.

Israel is isolated with few local allies. The Middle East is hugely messy and complex. Yet people watch a few social media vids and jump to conclusions often without reading up on the history.


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You’re making some quite wild assumptions based on what a few people who you don’t personally know have posted on a football forum.

Edit: to be fair that’s not something you are doing personally. I know we’re all guilty of that.
 
SpurMeUp said:
For the same reasons you probably care about Palestine. Injustice, and unfair human suffering.
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I personally have posted on here about the Syria conflict and how Bashaar committed genocide against his own people. Does that mean I'm OK to post about Palestine now?
 
LutonSpurs said:
I personally have posted on here about the Syria conflict and how Bashaar committed genocide against his own people. Does that mean I'm OK to post about Palestine now?
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You do whatever you want. Apologies. I guess I shouldn’t challenge set narratives. Definitely should not point out that people don’t get up in arms about a worse conflict that the UK had a hand in, that borders Palestine and relates to it. Or point to some of the nuances and complexities. Everyone should stick to their sandbox. As you were.


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SpurMeUp said:
You do whatever you want. Apologies. I guess I shouldn’t challenge set narratives. Definitely should not point out that people don’t get up in arms about a worse conflict that the UK had a hand in, that borders Palestine and relates to it. Or point to some of the nuances and complexities. Everyone should stick to their sandbox. As you were.


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Plenty of people did. But there wasn't outright support of Syrian regime like there is of Israel.

But more generally you think because people didn't protest enough about one bad thing that happened they are wrong for protesting the other bad thing. OK got you.
 
LutonSpurs said:
Plenty of people did. But there wasn't outright support of Syrian regime like there is of Israel.

But more generally you think because people didn't protest enough about one bad thing that happened they are wrong for protesting the other bad thing. OK got you.
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I don't think that no. The middle east is more complex than supporting one team. I was just trying to go into some of the nuances, rather than base views on some social media vids that selective present one side of things.
 
LutonSpurs said:
I mean staying in the EU due to economic reasons doesn't mean you endorse individual people with awful views. I'm not sure why it is a Brexit issue. Barnier was a negotiator after all.
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He was constant in his criticism of the UK for wanting to leave and at the beginning when May was trying to negotiate a deal claiming she was trying to undermine the founding principles of the EU by limiting freedom of movement.

His views are his and I will respect anyone who has views if they set out the reasons for having them.

But accusing the UK of undermining the founding principles of the EU by seeking curbs on migration means that he now has to stand on a francexit stance shirley?
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
But accusing the UK of undermining the founding principles of the EU by seeking curbs on migration means that he now has to stand on a francexit stance shirley?
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Point of order, it’s Frexit ! Funnily enough I’ve seen quite a few of these Frexit bumper stickers in the last year or so near where I live.
 
Daisuk said:
You can't criticise Israel, because then a bunch of jewish people will go .... ANTI-SEMITE! SHUT THE fudge UP, HITLER! Every goddamned time.
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Why are there pro-palestine convoys of cars with megaphones shouting "fudge the jews" heading to North London if this has nothing to do with antisemitism do you think?
 
dawaxman said:
Why are there pro-palestine convoys of cars with megaphones shouting "fudge the jews" heading to North London if this has nothing to do with antisemitism do you think?
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Well, people who say "fudge the Jews" are obviously anti-semittic, but people that say "fudge Israel" aren't.
 
dawaxman said:
Why are there pro-palestine convoys of cars with megaphones shouting "fudge the jews" heading to North London if this has nothing to do with antisemitism do you think?
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It is probably because they are so riled up at what has happened out there they unable to think clearly, use poor phrases. It often happens with all sorts of people in all sorts of situations that they get so upset they say offensive and insulting things.

Why do you think they are driving up to London, to protest at disproportionate violence and people getting forced from their homes.
 
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