Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Bedfordspurs]

You can actually type that in good conscious ?
Israel retaliating with military airstrikes etc is akin to the UK doing the same in the 70's in response to various IRA bombings. These so-called rocket attacks pose little to no threat at all to Israel, not with their current defence measures.

Imagine the outcry if the UK decided to flatten some corner of South Armagh with some jdam's as a response to having had a MoD station attacked etc.

The outrage over Israel doing what they do is due to the fact that they are excessively heavy-handed (always), they try at every opportunity to force the Palestinians' out of their own lands, they still occupy the West Bank thus enforcing on a daily basis Israeli security restrictions on Palestinian movement and activities, and Israeli “settlers,” Jews who build ever-expanding communities in the West Bank that effectively deny the land to Palestinians. Oh, and the world generally decries other countries when they have their misdemeanours and impose sanctions or send peace keeping troops - but Israel, oh no, best let them do what they want to do..
(These "settlers" btw, if I am not mistaken, are in contravention of international law too)
((Also, also - iirc Israel annexed Eastern Jerusalem in the 60's which again wasn't, and still isn't, recognised by many countries until that taco Drumpf did so in his term)

I'm not going to say Hamas is innocent either, clearly they are not and I genuinely don't think they represent the majority of Palestinians' , but when the land keeps getting stolen under a myriad of guises then someone is eventually going to oppose it and do what they feel is right to try an reject it.

As long as Israel keeps continuing to reject a two-state system these problems will always continue, and seeing how they have been beating on the Palestinians' since the late 40's I see no end to this sad situation.

It’s almost as if one side is equipped with a knife to hold off its oppressor and the other is using a rocket launcher
Everything constantly looks to be calculated but disproportionate too

 

[SpurMeUp]

I don’t understand. Is the argument that is being made, ‘Israel might be doing really really bad things but look at all these other places doing really really bad things’

I guess its more of a question than an argument: where was your outrage when 360,000 people were killed in Syria? Or in the many other conflicts. Part of the reason Isreal and Palestine persists for such a long time is because some (most reasonable people) in Isreal wish to see a two-state setup work. Whereas in other conflicts through history, you'd have one side knock out the other, and that would be that. Here there is a level of integration and, the two-state setup has worked at times with periods of stability and peace.

I guess an interesting question is: if London was being hit by rockets indiscriminately killing innocent Londoners, might you feel differently about taking out the sources of those rockets?

 

[DTA]

I guess its more of a question than an argument: where was your outrage when 360,000 people were killed in Syria? Or in the many other conflicts. Part of the reason Isreal and Palestine persists for such a long time is because some (most reasonable people) in Isreal wish to see a two-state setup work. Whereas in other conflicts through history, you'd have one side knock out the other, and that would be that. Here there is a level of integration and, the two-state setup has worked at times with periods of stability and peace.

I guess an interesting question is: if London was being hit by rockets indiscriminately killing innocent Londoners, might you feel differently about taking out the sources of those rockets?

Thing is though bruv. I understand Israels response to the rocket attacks from Hamas. I would even agree that they have the right to hit back (how is another question, but let's leave that for now... and say they are defending Israel in the best way they can). But what instigated Hamas firing those rockets? The removal of palistians from their homes... as in you have to move out as we are moving someone else in, I don't care that your family has lived here for 50 years and the orginal deed show that they are Jordan land given to refugees.... additionally the attack on the mosque during the holiest night for prayers... what was the justification in that? They knew it would get a response... in fact I think hamas even said stop what you are doing or we will respond.

In my opinion (and I believe that I am not bias in this) Netanyahu is using this conflict to distract from the serious corruption claims that he is facing. What better way to make a country forget that you are a crook then get them to unite 'against a 'common enemy'.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Thing is though bruv. I understand Israels response to the rocket attacks from Hamas. I would even agree that they have the right to hit back (how is another question, but let's leave that for now... and say they are defending Israel in the best way they can). But what instigated Hamas firing those rockets? The removal of palistians from their homes... as in you have to move out as we are moving someone else in, I don't care that your family has lived here for 50 years and the orginal deed show that they are Jordan land given to refugees.... additionally the attack on the mosque during the holiest night for prayers... what was the justification in that? They knew it would get a response... in fact I think hamas even said stop what you are doing or we will respond.

In my opinion (and I believe that I am not bias in this) Netanyahu is using this conflict to distract from the serious corruption claims that he is facing. What better way to make a country forget that you are a crook then get them to unite 'against a 'common enemy'.

I completely agree.

Israel is a democracy and sadly all around the world we’ve had more right wing governments elected recently. Maybe Biden’s election will usher new left leaning leadership.

The 1990s saw real hope of progress but the assassination of Rabin was a tragedy, it killed the process as well as him. With fanatics on both sides who don’t want peace it is Herculean to overcome the (minority) Israeli and Palestinian nut-jobs. During the 90s peace there were still suicide attacks. Innocent people on busses etc blown up. If that was occurring here our democracy would demand action too.

But let’s put things into perspective: if you add up every fatality in this conflict from all the way back from 1948 to now, it is still only a fraction of the deaths in the Syrian war. A war that your taxes went towards. A war that caused millions upon millions of displaced people and hundreds of thousands of deaths. Our government played a part in this war when our intelligence services knew Assad was the most stable bet and likely to win. Assad was also always a better option than getting rid of him leaving a power vacuum with fundamentalist groups fighting each other for control. Yet we helped destabilise and cause all these unnecessary deaths. Few are outraged. But someone collates some interviews with average people in Israel to present them being stupid/oppressive, and there’s vitriolic condemnation all over social media. Where was that when Syrians were being slaughtered?




Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[dawaxman]

You can actually type that in good conscious ?
Israel retaliating with military airstrikes etc is akin to the UK doing the same in the 70's in response to various IRA bombings. These so-called rocket attacks pose little to no threat at all to Israel, not with their current defence measures.

Imagine the outcry if the UK decided to flatten some corner of South Armagh with some jdam's as a response to having had a MoD station attacked etc.

The outrage over Israel doing what they do is due to the fact that they are excessively heavy-handed (always), they try at every opportunity to force the Palestinians' out of their own lands, they still occupy the West Bank thus enforcing on a daily basis Israeli security restrictions on Palestinian movement and activities, and Israeli “settlers,” Jews who build ever-expanding communities in the West Bank that effectively deny the land to Palestinians. Oh, and the world generally decries other countries when they have their misdemeanours and impose sanctions or send peace keeping troops - but Israel, oh no, best let them do what they want to do..
(These "settlers" btw, if I am not mistaken, are in contravention of international law too)
((Also, also - iirc Israel annexed Eastern Jerusalem in the 60's which again wasn't, and still isn't, recognised by many countries until that taco Drumpf did so in his term)

I'm not going to say Hamas is innocent either, clearly they are not and I genuinely don't think they represent the majority of Palestinians' , but when the land keeps getting stolen under a myriad of guises then someone is eventually going to oppose it and do what they feel is right to try an reject it.

As long as Israel keeps continuing to reject a two-state system these problems will always continue, and seeing how they have been beating on the Palestinians' since the late 40's I see no end to this sad situation.

You think the Israeli military represents the majority of Israelis though?? Why are you excusing hamas? And inferring that if they do any wrong it's not representative of all of the people, but when the Israeli military do something, you are happy to suggest its Israels fault, as if in some way the people of Israel control the military

 

[dawaxman]

Thing is though bruv. I understand Israels response to the rocket attacks from Hamas. I would even agree that they have the right to hit back (how is another question, but let's leave that for now... and say they are defending Israel in the best way they can). But what instigated Hamas firing those rockets? The removal of palistians from their homes... as in you have to move out as we are moving someone else in, I don't care that your family has lived here for 50 years and the orginal deed show that they are Jordan land given to refugees.... additionally the attack on the mosque during the holiest night for prayers... what was the justification in that? They knew it would get a response... in fact I think hamas even said stop what you are doing or we will respond.

In my opinion (and I believe that I am not bias in this) Netanyahu is using this conflict to distract from the serious corruption claims that he is facing. What better way to make a country forget that you are a crook then get them to unite 'against a 'common enemy'.

The terrorist cell that has said that they want to kill all Jews? You don't think they're the bad guys??

 

[DTA]

The terrorist cell that has said that they want to kill all Jews? You don't think they're the bad guys??

Don't be disingenuous. I'm trying to have a proper conversation about this.

I would be interested in a proper response to what you quoted from me.

 

[AuroRaman]

You think the Israeli military represents the majority of Israelis though?? Why are you excusing hamas? And inferring that if they do any wrong it's not representative of all of the people, but when the Israeli military do something, you are happy to suggest its Israels fault, as if in some way the people of Israel control the military

Why are you consistently excusing the gross terrorist actions of the Israeli government? No-one here has made it about the people. You are inferring that in what seems a form of deflection.

 

[DTA]

I completely agree.

Israel is a democracy and sadly all around the world we’ve had more right wing governments elected recently. Maybe Biden’s election will usher new left leaning leadership.

The 1990s saw real hope of progress but the assassination of Rabin was a tragedy, it killed the process as well as him. With fanatics on both sides who don’t want peace it is Herculean to overcome the (minority) Israeli and Palestinian nut-jobs. During the 90s peace there were still suicide attacks. Innocent people on busses etc blown up. If that was occurring here our democracy would demand action too.

But let’s put things into perspective: if you add up every fatality in this conflict from all the way back from 1948 to now, it is still only a fraction of the deaths in the Syrian war. A war that your taxes went towards. A war that caused millions upon millions of displaced people and hundreds of thousands of deaths. Our government played a part in this war when our intelligence services knew Assad was the most stable bet and likely to win. Assad was also always a better option than getting rid of him leaving a power vacuum with fundamentalist groups fighting each other for control. Yet we helped destabilise and cause all these unnecessary deaths. Few are outraged. But someone collates some interviews with average people in Israel to present them being stupid/oppressive, and there’s vitriolic condemnation all over social media. Where was that when Syrians were being slaughtered?




Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

I agree with that as well. In fact I would go even further and say that what is happening in China is much much worse than anything Israel has done to the Palestinians

If we had to pick only one thing to be outraged about I would definitely pick whats happening in China or the mass extinction that we are causing to the animals on our planet.

But we don't only have to pick one thing do we?

 

[LutonSpurs]

Nobody defended the Syrian regime from my memory. There wasn't a debate to be had. This is clearly different.

 

[AuroRaman]

I guess its more of a question than an argument: where was your outrage when 360,000 people were killed in Syria? Or in the many other conflicts. Part of the reason Isreal and Palestine persists for such a long time is because some (most reasonable people) in Isreal wish to see a two-state setup work. Whereas in other conflicts through history, you'd have one side knock out the other, and that would be that. Here there is a level of integration and, the two-state setup has worked at times with periods of stability and peace.

I guess an interesting question is: if London was being hit by rockets indiscriminately killing innocent Londoners, might you feel differently about taking out the sources of those rockets?

Is the question 'where was your outrage?' Or 'where was your outrage on Glory Glory football forum?' I have separate answers for both.

Most reasonable people on both sides want a two-state set-up. However this doesn't seem to work for the extremists on either. London has been attacked by in my lifetime, at times indiscriminately. I have never wanted a country or group of people to burn to the ground because of that.

 

[AuroRaman]

But someone collates some interviews with average people in Israel to present them being stupid/oppressive, and there’s vitriolic condemnation all over social media. Where was that when Syrians were being slaughtered?

I think this is an unfair statement. There has been widespread condemnation for decades about what is happening in the region, by the people moreso than world 'powers'. It is amplified now with the birth of platforms such as tik tok and instagram, where users can post live content as it happens. I think this is important as it gives an unbiased, factual portrayal of the daily trauma and fear civilians on both sides have to live with.

I saw a hellava lot of condemnation and call to action on my social media feeds regarding Syria, but maybe thats more about who I choose to follow than a general consensus.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think this is an unfair statement. Their has been widespread condemnation for decades about what is happening in the region. It is amplified now with the birth of platforms such as tik tok and instagram, where users can post live content as it happens. I saw a hellava lot of condemnation and call to action on my social media feeds regarding Syria, but maybe thats more about who I choose to follow than a general consensus.

Our government are not intrinsically involved in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. We were more active in Syria. The massive scale of lives lost and displaced there doesn’t compare to Palestine. Yet I think it is probably a push to even say there is similar coverage or condemnation as there is of Israel’s actions, which seems to really rile people up. Just curious to understand why that is.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[SpurMeUp]

Is the question 'where was your outrage?' Or 'where was your outrage on Glory Glory football forum?' I have separate answers for both.

Most reasonable people on both sides want a two-state set-up. However this doesn't seem to work for the extremists on either. London has been attacked by in my lifetime, at times indiscriminately. I have never wanted a country or group of people to burn to the ground because of that.

That’s the point: neither do most Israelis. Yet these ‘fun’ videos which select contentious/stupid people’s opinions are a fave of social media. People love to watch them and drink in these misrepresentations. Why is that? Probably because it fits their existing beliefs and narrative and they probably don’t fully understand the complexities of the situation.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[AuroRaman]

Our government are not intrinsically involved in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. We were more active in Syria. The scale of lives lost and displaced there is off the scale. Yet I think it is probably a push to even say there is similar coverage or condemnation as there is of Israel’s actions, which seems to rile people up. Just curious to understand why that is.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

We clearly aren't viewing the same news outlets. I've yet to see this widespread coverage and condemnation of Israel's actions by UK media outlets. I have seen much more on social media if that's what you mean?

I would say our involvement in Syria probably deadened any meaningful discussion or discourse in the media. Again, in the wider public I have witnessed much more condemnation and concern.

 

[Trixster]

You think the Israeli military represents the majority of Israelis though?? Why are you excusing hamas? And inferring that if they do any wrong it's not representative of all of the people, but when the Israeli military do something, you are happy to suggest its Israels fault, as if in some way the people of Israel control the military

Last polls that I am aware for there was a near enough 50/50 split for wanting peace negotiations, but when it was broken down into how strongly the opinions were felt then it was only around 29% of the general public that felt this way. In another question, only 50% of them had the resolution of the conflict as being a very important matter so I feel that they are more inclined to go along with what is decided by the military. They might not be happy but I'm not sure many are out protesting against it, might be wrong on that.

Sure, when the generals etc make their choices they are not having a quick round of phone calls with the populace to decide if they should do it or not. I was more referring to the retaliatory response being overly aggressive and excessive.
Just because someone hits you with a peashooter doesn't mean that you can respond with a howitzer.

As I said, it is a sad situation which seems destined to continue
There are fanatics on both sides and I don't see them sitting down anytime soon, although I would loved to be proved wrong, to broker a peace.

 

[AuroRaman]

That’s the point: neither do most Israelis. Yet these ‘fun’ videos which select contentious/stupid people’s opinions are a fave of social media. People love to watch them and drink in these misrepresentations. Why is that? Probably because it fits their existing beliefs and narrative and they probably don’t fully understand the complexities of the situation.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

I would say the videos of babies with their limbs blown off might have played more of a part in that...

 

[SpurMeUp]

Nobody defended the Syrian regime from my memory. There wasn't a debate to be had. This is clearly different.

Maybe you should have. It might have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. The UK government backed the fall of the Syrian regime and fundamentalist groups to take them down. Syria still has Assad and the Bathist party in power. There was a debate to be had - especially as our government were involved - few were interested to have it - that is the point.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[AuroRaman]

@SpurMeUp I do agree with you that social media is a dangerous tool for exacerbating pre-conceived beliefs and narratives. I've seen some grossly unfair posts centered at the Israeli people and/or denial of Hamas' intentions.

 

[AuroRaman]

Maybe you should have. It might have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. The UK government backed the fall of the Syrian regime and fundamentalist groups to take them down. Syria still has Assad and the Bathist party in power. There was a debate to be had - especially as our government were involved - few were interested to have it - that is the point.

Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

I'm curious to understand why any discussion about Israel and/or the government's actions consistently descends into a debate in whataboutery regarding other atrocities? It doesn't happen the other way round in my experience?