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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Grays_1890 said:
Said like he did so just walking down the street to a woman minding her own business.

The last part in bold is just spin to make people feel bad about the view. However I am able to split the two, I have never and would never strike a woman am hugely against domestic violence, however this was not, she was invading somewhere she shouldn't and in a climate where the is a high risk of attacks on political figures from the worse of Jo Cox to the latest of milkshake gates, we can all sit here with the power of hindsight and say "I would have done this and done that" or "did they have any weapons" etc etc but thats all crap, no one can sit and say how they would have reacted because you didn't live the moment so any other hindsight filled reactions would be disingenuous
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That's absolutely not the case. I have been in highly charged situations as have many of my former colleagues and we have not reacted with force unless absolutely necessary. If Jo Cox is your benchmark for interactions between protesters, members of the public and MPs or the famous we are going to have a lot of over reactions.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I understand that. I would ask though - how well do you suppose someone handle that situation when they havent been trained in how best to do so?

You have clearly had that training and know a lot better, but I can tell you that I havent - and theres every chance were I to try and stop someone getting past me that it would probably end up being quite clumsy and heavy handed.

Without the intent to hurt or be violent, just trying to stop someone and remove them - chances are it would be a lot like what happened with Field.

There is a huge difference between what he did and him being some sort of woman beating violent Donald Trump, and to be honest I feel like people are really blurring the lines between the two.

Yes, he could have handled it better. No, I dont think the response to what happened is at all proportional/appropriate. And yes, I think that is in very large part because she was a woman, were it a guy I cannot imagine the same posts being made her (and response in the press/from Labour etc).
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Mate he needed to call for someone to have her removed. They would have done it. The threat thing is flim flam. There were none of the usual threat factors associated with Islamic or far right terrorism and the climate change protests have not been violent.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Said like he did so just walking down the street to a woman minding her own business.

The last part in bold is just spin to make people feel bad about the view. However I am able to split the two, I have never and would never strike a woman am hugely against domestic violence, however this was not, she was invading somewhere she shouldn't and in a climate where the is a high risk of attacks on political figures from the worse of Jo Cox to the latest of milkshake gates, we can all sit here with the power of hindsight and say "I would have done this and done that" or "did they have any weapons" etc etc but thats all crap, no one can sit and say how they would have reacted because you didn't live the moment so any other hindsight filled reactions would be disingenuous
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...and I agree with most of that. But this is a little contradictory: you’re "hugely against domestic violence" but think violence is okay in this context?

Yes, we cut people some slack because they don't have experience/training. But doesn't mean society should condone his actions as okay. He should be and was suspended. Scara said he wouldn't have acted with the same agression. What is so hard about saying his actions (agression/force) were not appropraite and he should have handled it better? But hey helps pass the time until we sign someone :)
 
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Robspur12 said:
Gatecrashing is probably a less OTT description than Storming I agree she shouldn't be there. Just how you remove her is the only disagreement.
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With the backdrop of modern times and heightened awareness around attacks and attackers and the many forms and varaitions they come in ......

In that situation, do you ask questions before intervening?

Its probably no? And most likely sensible not to ask questions? Its a private function/building and the person that has entered the room has somehow done so without permission and has evaded security.

So you deal with her physically. You have a moment, a very short moment to react and and choose your course of action, you almost dont choose, its reactionary/instinctive.

It does look a little heavy handed BUT the circumstances should trump that and i would add that due to the split second nature of the reaction he still didn't end up punching her, rugby tackling her or any act that would have the potential to cause her injury or harm. He grabbed her and frog marched her out of there, in much the same way someone who is 'allowed' to eject someone might do. He grabbed the neck, someone trained might grab the upper arm and jam the arm up the back (actually more chance of injuring someone this way). She might have some finger mark bruising, that is all.

Technically it could be assault. But no matter who you are (man or woman ), put yourself in that situation, somewhere you shouldnt be, with something to say, then don't be surprised if that, or more, happens.

I don't know who the fella is, so handily wont bring that into whether i think it was right or wrong. And if it was a man that needed tackling, would he have done it? Quite simply we don't know.
 
Robspur12 said:
Mate he needed to call for someone to have her removed. They would have done it. The threat thing is flim flam. There were none of the usual threat factors associated with Islamic or far right terrorism and the climate change protests have not been violent.
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If im at a dinner function and a lady comes in and is causing a bit of a scene i'm rubberknecking.

BUT If i'm a politician and the chancellor etc are there and that happens, i'm way more nervous in that situation.
 
Robspur12 said:
That's absolutely not the case. I have been in highly charged situations as have many of my former colleagues and we have not reacted with force unless absolutely necessary. If Jo Cox is your benchmark for interactions between protesters, members of the public and MPs or the famous we are going to have a lot of over reactions.
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How long have you been off the job?
 
Robspur12 said:
Mate he needed to call for someone to have her removed. They would have done it. The threat thing is flim flam. There were none of the usual threat factors associated with Islamic or far right terrorism and the climate change protests have not been violent.
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That's racial profiling you fudging racist!

Typical police, all the same ;)
 
Robspur12 said:
Mate he needed to call for someone to have her removed. They would have done it. The threat thing is flim flam. There were none of the usual threat factors associated with Islamic or far right terrorism and the climate change protests have not been violent.
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The threat thing is not flim flam at all, there was every possibility she meant harm. Security were nowhere to be seen.

The choice was simple, there is a person advancing on the chancellor with intent and with the possibility of something concealed in their bag/under their sash. Do you stop them or let them go?

Imagine she had a knife in the bag, and he just watched her go by and stab the Chancellor? Its crazy to just say "Of course theres no threat, just call security and let her do what she wants for the time it takes them to arrive!"
 
the dza said:
There is a middle ground where he just gets up and stands in the way, rather than being a heavy-handed tw@t about it. Of course, if a Mike Tyson clone was walking towards the chancellor, they guy would have acted in the exact same way I'm sure, as his intention was only the heroic protection of the chancellor, and not throwing his weight around at riff-raff that shouldn't spoil his din dins.
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You've phrased that to make it sound as if there's nothing wrong with that. That's not correct - being removed slightly heavy handedly is the least someone should expect for crashing a good dinner.
 
the dza said:
There is a middle ground where he just gets up and stands in the way, rather than being a heavy-handed tw@t about it. Of course, if a Mike Tyson clone was walking towards the chancellor, they guy would have acted in the exact same way I'm sure, as his intention was only the heroic protection of the chancellor, and not throwing his weight around at riff-raff that shouldn't spoil his din dins.
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We will never know.

But in the meantime lets throw as much emotional opinionated flim flam into the discussion as possible.:rolleyes:
 
the dza said:
There is a middle ground where he just gets up and stands in the way, rather than being a heavy-handed tw@t about it. Of course, if a Mike Tyson clone was walking towards the chancellor, they guy would have acted in the exact same way I'm sure, as his intention was only the heroic protection of the chancellor, and not throwing his weight around at riff-raff that shouldn't spoil his din dins.
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You just dont know, and are are clearly rather prejudiced about it.

I dont understand how you can reach the conclusion that he views her as riff raff, that he was just throwing his weight around (presumably because he could, because it was a woman?) or that he wouldnt have done the same were it a male protester.

I mean, thats a lot of added spice on your part isnt it?

Probably doesnt help that he's a Tory. I wonder what your reaction would be were he a Labour MP?
 
Did she have a knife? no she did not, however what if she did and then ended up stabbing someone what would those who are saying he overreacted be saying then?. Sitting behind a computer screen and coming over all self-righteous about what he did is easy in hindsight.
 
the dza said:
Yeah, none of that coming from people falling over themselves to say the guy did nothing wrong though. She could have had a rocket launcher in her purse!

Award him the VC, clearly a hero. It's not enough to say "fair enough, he wanted to stop her going towards the chancellor but was heavy-handed and did it wrong." (Which is what I originally said). No that won't do; we all have to agree that the guy did absolutely nothing wrong and anyone who says different is just being self-righteous.

I've given the benefit of the doubt to quite a few, but there are clearly some right-wing pr1cks posting here who don't wanna quite come out and say what they really believe. Phuck yourselves.
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And there it is, this it not even about left or right and yet you have made it so.

Run out of arguments and you bring that into it. Shameful really
 
Robspur12 said:
Mate he needed to call for someone to have her removed. They would have done it. The threat thing is flim flam. There were none of the usual threat factors associated with Islamic or far right terrorism and the climate change protests have not been violent.
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Why far right? Is there no far left loonies?
And why would a far right terrorist attack a tory shindig?

There's three mistakes in this situation imho,

1, burst in and protest, fine, but she should not have sought out and approached the main speaker. That is iffy, and makes it look like a possible attack.

2. He shouldn't have been quite so 'enthusiastic' in his handling of her.

3. The biggest issue for me though is the complete over reaction, most of it just to score points.

It's all totally bizarre and a sad reflection of today's politics.
 
glasgowspur said:
Why far right? Is there no far left loonies?
And why would a far right terrorist attack a tory shindig?

There's three mistakes in this situation imho,

1, burst in and protest, fine, but she should not have sought out and approached the main speaker. That is iffy, and makes it look like a possible attack.

2. He shouldn't have been quite so 'enthusiastic' in his handling of her.

3. The biggest issue for me though is the complete over reaction, most of it just to score points.

It's all totally bizarre and a sad reflection of today's politics.
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Bang on.........
 
the dza said:
Yeah, none of that coming from people falling over themselves to say the guy did nothing wrong though. She could have had a rocket launcher in her purse!

Award him the VC, clearly a hero. It's not enough to say "fair enough, he wanted to stop her going towards the chancellor but was heavy-handed and did it wrong." (Which is what I originally said). No that won't do; we all have to agree that the guy did absolutely nothing wrong and anyone who says different is just being self-righteous.

I've given the benefit of the doubt to quite a few, but there are clearly some right-wing pr1cks posting here who don't wanna quite come out and say what they really believe. Phuck yourselves.
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Out of interest, seeing as you appear to consider the gender of the person involved to be more important than the actions and choices they made. Can I pose the following list of questions?

  1. What if she were a built to fudge woman who could easily have wiped the floor with Field?
  2. What if she were a teeny tiny man (say, Danny Rose size)?
  3. What if she were born a man, built like Mike Tyson and identified as a woman?
  4. If we were at war with a country that used female soldiers on the front line, would you suggest that our troops avoid aiming at female enemy combatants?

Edit: This sounds like I'm trying to lead you into some kind of logic trap - that's genuinely not the case. I just want to gauge how far the gender split goes in your view.
 
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