Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[SpurMeUp]

Protest has been a cornerstone of democracy. If those on here who advocate unnecessary violence against peaceful protesters were in power we’d be living in a police state. People would be afraid to step out and make their point. Should elected officials listen to protesters or be free to beat them up without recourse?

By stating the MP had no training you are effectively saying he made a mistake. Why is it then so hard to say “he made a mistake”? The MP in question did, why can’t posters in here? Why back unnecessary aggression against a peaceful protester?

Were the police in Barcelona alright swinging their batons about against our fans, because they were too rowdy and ‘could have swung punches’? Violence has to have clear justification. Especially from elected members of our government. The reason this has become an issue in this thread is it leans toward a fascist approach to society - an un-gentlemanly society - and I don’t think anyone would want a fascist Britain would they?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[glasgowspur]

Protest has been a cornerstone of democracy. If those on here who advocate unnecessary violence against peaceful protesters were in power we’d be living in a police state. People would be afraid to step out and make their point. Should elected officials listen to protesters or be free to beat them up without recourse?

By stating the MP had no training you are effectively saying he made a mistake. Why is it then so hard to say “he made a mistake”? The MP in question did, why can’t posters in here? Why back unnecessary aggression against a peaceful protester?

Were the police in Barcelona alright swinging their batons about against our fans, because they were too rowdy and ‘could have swung punches’? Violence has to have clear justification. Especially from elected members of our government. The reason this has become an issue in this thread is it leans toward a fascist approach to society - an un-gentlemanly society - and I don’t think anyone would a fascist Britain.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

You are completely correct in what you about protests, just like some is should be able to protest or defend their stand without being label sexest, bigoted, racist, facist, tory, loony left or lentil eater etc.
The rather quick way everything has to descend to labelling and naming calling is very depressing, does no one know how to debate in a civilised manner any more.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Out of interest, seeing as you appear to consider the gender of the person involved to be more important than the actions and choices they made. Can I pose the following list of questions?

1. What if she were a built to fudge woman who could easily have wiped the floor with Field?
   
   
   Field wouldn’t have grabbed the bint.
   
2. What if she were a teeny tiny man (say, Danny Rose size)?
   
   Same applies as now.
   
3. What if she were born a man, built like Mike Tyson and identified as a woman?
   
   Then Field would have been in serious trouble...
   
4. If we were at war with a country that used female soldiers on the front line, would you suggest that our troops avoid aiming at female enemy combatants?

Edit: This sounds like I'm trying to lead you into some kind of logic trap - that's genuinely not the case. I just want to gauge how far the gender split goes in your view.

Abuse of power is the core of the issue. Size and gender are less important. Everyone’s seen a bully use their heft to dominate someone more slight. It’s never a good look, especially for an elected official.




Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Grays_1890]

What is clear is those that get upset on trivial things like the state of johnsons socks and the minimal level of acceptable force to over the top force are falling further behind in the real race...you can stick yo your Trump blimps whilst the big boys do the adult stuff....

 

[thfcsteff]

Answers within the quote below in bold.

I did not say she went into his home. At all. In your enthusiasm to jump on that high horse you didnt even read the post.

I said HE is being treated as though he went into HER home and dragged her out. Such is the response (and just take a look at your effort the last page).

First of all, unconditional apologies to you for misreading. Guilty as charged. I still think your point is weak to say the least, but I should, indeed, have understood its specific details, so no argument there.

This was a private function. With the Chancellor sat at the head table. It wasnt trafalger square and a cheese sandwich at lunchtime.

Hahahahaha, and that should indemnify it from being a potential target for protest? 'Tis a free country, right? I would've assumed if it ws that important that the security would've been onto her before she'd got through the lobby. There again, probably some cheap sub-contracted wasters masquerading as security to save them all another few quid which could be better used, errrr, "elsewhere"...

She had no right whatsoever to be there. None. And after storming a PRIVATE function, you think she should have been afforded time and attention for a quick chat?!

And now you're not reading properly. Did I say "should have been"? No. I suggested that if this fool had even an OUNCE of savvy, he could've turned it into a galvanizing moment for him and his instead of a polarizing moment between people who feel this is acceptable behavior and people who know it isn't.

SHE HAD NO RIGHT TO BE THERE.

We have established that she was intruding. What we are debating is how she should've been dealt with. Aren't we?

And I also contest prior posts stating it as a peaceful protest. A peaceful protest is standing outside waving placards. What do you call it when someone storms into a venue and makes a direct run at the top table? Certainly not peaceful, on the spectrum of behaviours its far nearer "terrorism" than "peaceful protest".

Pathetic. "Nearer terrorism"? Jesus, that is really some statement. Tell you what, why not publish a handbook on protest for the proletariat when directed towards the elite?

And then there is the double standard of it all. If it was a guy I guarantee the reaction would be completely different.

Hows that for equality heh? Women are equal except theyre not.

There you are! Out you come! It comes down to your perceived view of "equality" does it? Look, his actions were disproportionate and stupid. In my view and that of many others. Not you, obviously. I will say, doubling-down, that the fact it involved a woman makes it twice as poor. Take the gender out of it; a man of his, errrr, "heft" getting physical with someone of that, errrr, "lack of heft" who was carrying nothing other than a protest view unwelcome at the event should NOT be throttled on site. IMO.

No high-horse here at all. I have intervened in public situations before where aggressors outweigh their targets two or three to one, because I think it is a pathetic and cowardly way to behave.

Field showed absolutely no restraint or composure. If he was my MP I'd be concerned.

 

[thfcsteff]

It wasn't meant to be amusing - it's just accurate.

If she wants to attend events at Mansion House then she has the option to do as the rest of us do and become a valued contributor to society. Subsequently, if she wants her voice and/or opinion heard at such events then she can become a recognised expert in her field and get invited to speak. From there she can spout whatever nonsense she wishes. Until then, her opinions belong on placards somewhere out of the way of all of the important people.

You clearly do not respect the freedom to protest.
She has the right to protest as she sees fit. If that means breaking the law, then by all means she should understand the consequences and abide by them.
Being throttled by a gammon is not an appropriate consequence in my view. Perhaps it is in other cultures, but not this one.
I find it interesting that you, and others, appear to ignore that perspective.
I would also add that whoever was doing security for the event that night needs to be questioned for competency; which is where your Greggs point becomes pertinent as I wonder if the chosen security that night work part-time shifts at Greggs when not "securing" such "events"...

 

[Grays_1890]

Free country, does that mean you could march freely into the HOP or HOLs or expect to?

 

[thfcsteff]

I understand that. I would ask though - how well do you suppose someone handle that situation when they havent been trained in how best to do so?

You have clearly had that training and know a lot better, but I can tell you that I havent - and theres every chance were I to try and stop someone getting past me that it would probably end up being quite clumsy and heavy handed.

Without the intent to hurt or be violent, just trying to stop someone and remove them - chances are it would be a lot like what happened with Field.

There is a huge difference between what he did and him being some sort of woman beating violent Donald Trump, and to be honest I feel like people are really blurring the lines between the two.

Yes, he could have handled it better. No, I dont think the response to what happened is at all proportional/appropriate. And yes, I think that is in very large part because she was a woman, were it a guy I cannot imagine the same posts being made her (and response in the press/from Labour etc).

Field is a public servant who I presume has some degree of both academic and learned knowledge of people. He didn't even take a few seconds to ask what she was doing. He simply cut her off and threw her against an pillar before marching her out gripping her by the neck. I have seen someone invoke a Jo Cox argument here. If that is where we are at, then sadly we will quickly descend into the US farce which is guns and everyone pulling pieces on each other if they "approach" in a "perceived hostile" way.

Truthfully this is a massive failure of event security.

And for the "woman" thing, I certainly didn't see the cops in Madrid grabbing the streaker by throat and aggressively shoving her. I saw them strongly secure her from running any further. Was that a potential Jo Cox moment? Let the quips ensue, but I think you know what I mean...

 

[thfcsteff]

What is clear is those that get upset on trivial things like the state of johnsons socks and the minimal level of acceptable force to over the top force are falling further behind in the real race...you can stick yo your Trump blimps whilst the big boys do the adult stuff....

What does that even mean? Go on. Educate us all.

 

[thfcsteff]

There is a middle ground where he just gets up and stands in the way, rather than being a heavy-handed tw@t about it. Of course, if a Mike Tyson clone was walking towards the chancellor, they guy would have acted in the exact same way I'm sure, as his intention was only the heroic protection of the chancellor, and not throwing his weight around at riff-raff that shouldn't spoil his din dins.

I am prepared to speculate that had that been the case, Field would've been hiding behind his napkin and crying for security.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Did she have a knife? no she did not, however what if she did and then ended up stabbing someone what would those who are saying he overreacted be saying then?. Sitting behind a computer screen and coming over all self-righteous about what he did is easy in hindsight.

Politicians mix with the public all the time, they go to the supermarket etc. Do we give them permission to rough up any one just in case they pose a threat.

I don't think he assaulted her but this "could have had a knife" is flimflam imo.

 

[Scoopage]

You clearly do not respect the freedom to protest.
She has the right to protest as she sees fit. If that means breaking the law, then by all means she should understand the consequences and abide by them.
Being throttled by a gammon is not an appropriate consequence in my view. Perhaps it is in other cultures, but not this one.
I find it interesting that you, and others, appear to ignore that perspective.
I would also add that whoever was doing security for the event that night needs to be questioned for competency; which is where your Greggs point becomes pertinent as I wonder if the chosen security that night work part-time shifts at Greggs when not "securing" such "events"...

She didn't get throttled though

 

[Grays_1890]

Mark field is not a trained professional, he was a man sitting among potential high value targets, untrained people have different fight or flight response. Once adrenaline kicks in to the untrained, their reaction is instinctual. Whilst standing outside protesting with placards is acceptable, breaching security to a private function is trespass, and illegal.

 

[Rorschach]

Surely there are more important things to talk about in the world of politics than this?

 

[Grays_1890]

Surely there are more important things to talk about in the world of politics than this?

Yeh and that was my earlier point, the Corbyn crew have no chance because they cry about this and lie that they would act different in a situation they were never in...and think Boris Johnsons socks being inside out is news and his personal life is key.

Then they wonder why they haven't done fudge all for the last number of years.

 

[Grays_1890]

What does that even mean? Go on. Educate us all.

Well whilst the rest of the world are concerned about iran and real issue of last week the left spend it crying into their Soya Milk about this Mark lad and trivial crap.

 

[Grays_1890]

I've read crap on here like "if it was Mike Tyson would it" and the argument packaged in such a way where people suggest if you are ok with last week you are somehow a fan of domestic violence. Speculation and ridiculousness at its finest...

 

[spurspinter1]

Clearly you haven't read @spurspinter1 's Lighthouse Family post in the music thread.

It's made me realise how disappointing it is that you can't like your own posts in this place. Total BS.

I would definitely cast my vote towards a lighthouse family duo to lead our fine country rather than any of the total uberclams that have formed part of the leadership race but then again, I'm not hugely knowledgeable in the way of politics (but I evidently am in music before any of you fudges jump in there with that one)

 

[scaramanga]

Abuse of power is the core of the issue. Size and gender are less important. Everyone’s seen a bully use their heft to dominate someone more slight. It’s never a good look, especially for an elected official.




Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

What rot.

There was no abuse of power because there was no power used (other than the physical kind, in which case I refer you to my earlier questions). The power wielded by those at the dinner wasn't recognised by those trespassing - the woman didn't leave because her superior asked her to, she left because she was physically removed.

Which leads me back to the physical aspect. What do you think would have happened if some thug for hire, embarrassed that her and her lot had snuck past him? I'd imagine the outcome would have been worse,y calling for security is what most who disapprove of his actions are suggesting should have happened.

 

[scaramanga]

You clearly do not respect the freedom to protest.
She has the right to protest as she sees fit. If that means breaking the law, then by all means she should understand the consequences and abide by them.
Being throttled by a gammon is not an appropriate consequence in my view. Perhaps it is in other cultures, but not this one.
I find it interesting that you, and others, appear to ignore that perspective.
I would also add that whoever was doing security for the event that night needs to be questioned for competency; which is where your Greggs point becomes pertinent as I wonder if the chosen security that night work part-time shifts at Greggs when not "securing" such "events"...

I respect people's freedom to protest as long as it doesn't inconvenience real people.

Being removed roughly is the berry, berry least one should expect for crashing a nice meal. If someone did that when I was at a nice restaurant I'd ensure the table had a quick whiparound to tip the security to put a couple of extra kicks in.