Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Grays_1890]

Let me try and answer your post by saying firstly i have nothing but admiration for those who are working on the streets and trying to protect the public and nothing i have said is against them at all.

No i have never been inside a prison either as a guest or a visitor and i have no desire to do so. But as far as i am concerned i hope they are "Not a nice place I can assure you." as you say, they should not be and i have no sympathy for those that end up there. If judges make perverse decisions ( again your words) then more fool them.

As for another of you points "not having enough experienced coppers around" well they should be and ( imo) is not a good enough excuse for lesser charges and getting soft on crime.

My main problem though is not the police themselves,as you would know better then me they are understaffed and probably under budgeted, its the pussy arsed social worker who believes there is goodness in everyone and that everyone deserves another chance( and another one and then another one).

I understand that not everything is not " Black or White" but to say that we are not soft on crime is ( imo) wrong and i would suggest that if you were to ask those who live in the built up areas around our country they would 400% back that up.

There is a old saying " if you can not do the time then do not do the crime" nowadays that is laughed at by the scumbags etc as they usually get a slap on the hand and let go to commit more crime.

Where I was living in Grays they found a gang on the street in pos' of loads of drugs, found them to be using girls usually GFs to hold the drugs as they were in theory were less likely searched, using kids on bikes as runners etc the police found all this, had the evidence as they busted them in the town centre. Anyway the known leader was sent to court and got a curfew...a curfew for being in their words "a known drug" dealer. Not allowed out after X and not allowed near the town centre etc.

Stone the crows a couple of months later found to have broken the curfew and in London up to no good.

What's the point?

 

[Grays_1890]

Thanks mate. This problem is far bigger than Sadiq Khan. I like Sadiq and voted for him but he has made mistakes, (which politician hasn't?). The rise in crime I don't think is just confined to London but around the country.

One of my biggest worries is not that we are soft on crime per se, but we have created a perfect environment for organised crime to flourish. There something in the news about this a few months back from the National Crime Agency. Other than that I don't think it is being taken seriously enough other than a few high profile drug busts.

Part of the reason are cuts to different agencies. The police always shout the loudest of course, but agencies like the Custom's arms of HMRC have been cut to the bone so there is not enough enforcement on smuggling. Local authorities who I now work for have been cut to the bone and their powers diluted because the civil liberties rude boys fear they will misuse them. On the last point from my experience Police officers are much more likely to abuse powers than LAs. So for example many agencies do not understand the data protection laws and do not want to share information in the mistaken belief that they will breach the law.

The criminals exploit loopholes in law, are adept with technology often much more than the enforcement agencies, they understand social media and exploit the weaknesses of the enforcement agencies including the fact that some of our lawyers are just not good enough.

Lots of Police officers do an amazing job, but the Met has issues with recruitment, competence etc. Numbers alone are not the answer but ensuring we have well trained officers who understand the law and to use them more tactically. So for example I have questioned why the Police are devoting so much resource to investigating Grenfell which is ostensibly a fire safety and health and safety issue.

Finally the politicians of all parties have failed to get a grip on this problem as they have become so paralysed by Brexit. I cannot see that changing anytime soon unfortunately.

I hope I have given a reasonable answer to your question mate. I could go on all night but I would just bore you.

This does not sit purely on politics or politicians although there is a link between politics and community, the community and families have to do more on this.

Its all ok being church going GHod fearing folk but the "not my son" "always a good boy" stuff proves, If they believe what they say, that there is more to do. Not holding their kids accountable for their actions or where they are is a huge problem in my opinion.

That said Khan record is starting to stink the place up

 

[scaramanga]

Also, Bercow's opinion on it (watch the video clip at the top of this article) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48541352

For him to have that level of confidence that prorogation won't happen to force through a hard-brexit, he must know that there would be some process or other to prevent it. And he'd know better than anybody (including Raab).

I'm not sure he would. His role and his knowledge are two entirely separate measures.

 

[Robspur12]

This does not sit purely on politics or politicians although there is a link between politics and community, the community and families have to do more on this.

Its all ok being church going GHod fearing folk but the "not my son" "always a good boy" stuff proves, If they believe what they say, that there is more to do. Not holding their kids accountable for their actions or where they are is a huge problem in my opinion.

That said Khan record is starting to stink the place up

Haha everything is so simple. You don't think the communities are trying to do something about it? Do you think they just want to see their kids die?

A member of the question time audience made some good points the other night on this matter. You have single mums, some through choice, some through bad decisions some because fathers are just irresponsible. The single mum has 2 jobs, working at the supermarket or cleaning so no one is at home looking after those kids. Or the kids are excluded from school too quickly, and without structure they are groomed into gangs.

Politicians can help. Not by individually rounding up kids. But by setting realistic budgets for police, LAs other enforcement agencies that regulate areas such as smuggling rather than year on year forcing savings from them. LAs on average have had to make 40% in budget savings since 2010. Despite increasing demands in areas such as social care.

Politicians have cut budgets for organisations that work with different ethnic groups to assist their integration into British Society. Likewise for groups that support new mums, building a sense of community. There are consequences to those decisions.

This is a nationwide problem. So while it is fair to be asking what is Khan doing about it you should also question the home secretary.

 

[Grays_1890]

Haha everything is so simple. You don't think the communities are trying to do something about it? Do you think they just want to see their kids die?

A member of the question time audience made some good points the other night on this matter. You have single mums, some through choice, some through bad decisions some because fathers are just irresponsible. The single mum has 2 jobs, working at the supermarket or cleaning so no one is at home looking after those kids. Or the kids are excluded from school too quickly, and without structure they are groomed into gangs.

Politicians can help. Not by individually rounding up kids. But by setting realistic budgets for police, LAs other enforcement agencies that regulate areas such as smuggling rather than year on year forcing savings from them. LAs on average have had to make 40% in budget savings since 2010. Despite increasing demands in areas such as social care.

Politicians have cut budgets for organisations that work with different ethnic groups to assist their integration into British Society. Likewise for groups that support new mums, building a sense of community. There are consequences to those decisions.

This is a nationwide problem. So while it is fair to be asking what is Khan doing about it you should also question the home secretary.

Never said it was simple, I've seen it first hand so I know its not

I saw QT and middle aged nan of 14 grandchildren...

My dad was in the Met and hardly home and my mum worked long hours in the NHS but I was always accountable for where I was and in situations where it was unreasonable times of the day I was at friends or with family, I get the point on broken families but the families still need to take responsibility, blaming others for your own problems is easy.

The theme for these issues as I was told by my dad is broken homes and absent fathers many of the dads wronguns some inside, some dead, but there are bad decisions on both sides, the fathers choices In life and the womens choice of father for their children, that's the first level of responsibility.

And the denial of any wrong doing is real, my mate who is on the beat took a lad home only to be spat at by the mother due to her son being so innocent in her eyes...

 

[AuroRaman]

I can't sum up thermodynamics in one simple post either - that doesn't make it any less real or negate it's importance

Plebeian


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[parklane1]

Where I was living in Grays they found a gang on the street in pos' of loads of drugs, found them to be using girls usually GFs to hold the drugs as they were in theory were less likely searched, using kids on bikes as runners etc the police found all this, had the evidence as they busted them in the town centre. Anyway the known leader was sent to court and got a curfew...a curfew for being in their words "a known drug" dealer. Not allowed out after X and not allowed near the town centre etc.

Stone the crows a couple of months later found to have broken the curfew and in London up to no good.

What's the point?

That goes to show how crazy the process of the law is in todays world, as i said i feel sorry for the police on most occasions. They try and do their best to stop arseholes causing problems/breaking the law etc only to get to court and find some bleeding heart liberal social worker making excuses for them.

 

[Rorschach]

I'm not spending another 20 posts explaining to you again, only for you to ask the same questions in a couple of weeks again.

It doesn't matter anyway, the only way for Boris to win the next election is to be out of the EU first and in a manner that the electorate doesn't feel is BINO.

So based on timescales available, either the EU stops being so fudging unreasonable about their little Ireland problem or we shut down parliament and have complete freedom.

The little Ireland problem. LOL.

 

[Robspur12]

And the denial of any wrong doing is real, my mate who is on the beat took a lad home only to be spat at by the mother due to her son being so innocent in her eyes...

It's not just kids from broken homes who are like that in my experience. There are plenty of middle class parents who do not tell their kids off and that is going to lead to its own problems in adult hood. But citing single cases of poor court decisions or bad behaviour is not the norm or showing we are soft on crime.

In a population of 5 million you will get plenty of wrong uns and our system is not designed to change people long term unfortunately. Just to administer short sharp shocks.

 

[Grays_1890]

Yeh I agree but when machette weilding nutters are given suspended sentances and they find long knives on gangs in North London only to give them community orders, those stories hardly fill you with warm fluffy feelings.

I think society is messed up when we care or give more air time about a politician pushing an intruder than the 5 or so murders since last Friday or there are no reactions in comparison to the footage of gangs chasing the police in Stratford after a stabbing at the weekend or gangs of school kids wadding in on a bike rider

 

[Grays_1890]

Talk about going over the top, what i said has nothing to do with bullying women or abusing children and you need to take a breath if you think that. As for my point (Country has gone soft) do you think that punishment through the courts is fair and putting toe rags on probation and " work in the community" is actually making he streets safer for everyone?.

She was somewhere she was not supposed to be and could have been carrying anything, what IF she had been carrying a knife and actually hurt somebody, would you be still be saying that he overeacted?

I was thinking about this today seeing the news and fall out and the more I think about it the more I feel this guys being stitched up.

MPs are high risk targets and being an unwanted visitor at this dinner is no different to trying to get into HOP or number 10 and what reaction would she get to doing that? I would imagine the consequences would be serious, a shove and being able to give interviews today means she got away lightly, just look at Bryan Ferrys son, he ended up with a trip to the courts.

Like I said hindsight we can say she was no risk but we have the comfort of not living the moment, but in the climate of Jo Cox, Westminster attacks and general public sh1thousery I don't see how we can condemn a mans actions which were to protect and defend the person who committed the original wrong

 

[scaramanga]

It was a peaceful protest at a political event, what punishment do you think fits the "crime"? The MP was wrong in the way he man-handled the woman, he could have handled it better. Nobody died, it's not the end of the world, but the MP deserves a bit of sh1t for his actions. In his position, he ought to have better judgement at least (being a nice person wouldn't go amiss either).

Breaking in to the event and ruining a good meal? A few £k fine and a month or so locked up would do.

Being a member of Greenpeace? Dump them in Australia.

 

[Grays_1890]

It was a peaceful protest at a political event, what punishment do you think fits the "crime"? The MP was wrong in the way he man-handled the woman, he could have handled it better. Nobody died, it's not the end of the world, but the MP deserves a bit of sh1t for his actions. In his position, he ought to have better judgement at least (being a nice person wouldn't go amiss either).

So as a peaceful protest do you think they/she had a right to be there?

You highlight crime in way that suggests you don't feel it was a crime so I would prefer to flip that question to you, what punishment do you think their actions fit?

I would also ask you, if someone suggested to you that you go and protest a dinner which had some of the higher profile UK MPs and be the one that makes the way towards the front to approach the speaker would you do it without believing there would be any consequence? What do you think the consequence would be in the US if you did the same at a dinner full of congress?

I'm not Tory and I've no time for the guy that escorted her out, however if anyone thinks you go to a dinner of high profile MPs with intentions to protest and do so without some consequence I would say there is elements of delusion.

People peacefully break onto the pitch of football games to advertise and get man handled off, including women, I seem to remember the woman at the CL final wasn't exactly treated with care.

 

[scaramanga]

Yes, imo in a democracy, protesters have the right to peacefully protest political events, so no, I don't feel it was a crime, certainly nothing worthy of "punishment". She didn't go around the guy's house, the Mansion House speech given by the Chancellor is political. No punishment is necessary because they were peaceful, they can be moved along when they have made their point (which they were), I only question the way the MP moved her along, which was heavy handed, unneccesary and wasn't right at all.

So again, what do you think should happen for the "crime" of peacefully protesting a political event?

There's peacefully protesting an event as in standing outside. That should be crime free unless they disrupt my day/evening in which case a few weeks would be about right.

People like that don't belong in places like Mansion House though, and protesting inside could and should carry a heavier penalty.

 

[Grays_1890]

There's peacefully protesting an event as in standing outside. That should be crime free unless they disrupt my day/evening in which case a few weeks would be about right.

People like that don't belong in places like Mansion House though, and protesting inside could and should carry a heavier penalty.

Breach of the peace

 

[thfcsteff]

What a load of gonad*s this whole thing is.

She shouldnt have been there, she got turfed out. I dont even think it was OTT the way he handled her, he just marched her out.

The reaction is as if he went into her home, found her eating dinner and minding her business, and dragged her outside by her hair for a kicking!

She had no right to be there. She knew that. He got her out.

Now he is suspended, Labour calling for him to be fired, the press up in arms and the woman who was trespassing is being held up as a victim of circumstance.

fudging madness.

No no NO, it is NOT “madness”, it is a reminder that thankfully, some people can see an absolute coward and clown shoe when presented with video evidence!

So a protester got into their dining room. Wow. How terrible. In fact, SO fudging terrible that it is imperative she be shoved up against a pillar and frog-marched outside whilst being gripped by the neck and shoved along. Yeah. What a tremendous “man” he is. Tell you this, had it been ME he would’ve whimpered behind the bread basket and whined for security!

She did NOT go to his home, so even introducing that into the discussion is deflection. And even if she had, find another fudging way to deal with it 6ft 2” mighty man!

Imagine -just imagine- if he’d said to her he would talk for a few minutes. Not only would he have received positive press, he’d have handled the situation like a proper boss. Instead he showed what a giant fudging coward he was...

I find it unbelievable that anyone can find any defence of his behaviour TBH.

 

[thfcsteff]

There's peacefully protesting an event as in standing outside. That should be crime free unless they disrupt my day/evening in which case a few weeks would be about right.

People like that don't belong in places like Mansion House though, and protesting inside could and should carry a heavier penalty.

“People like that”...I see.

Nothing like the curation and potential further development of a police state, where people go where they’re told and are only heard when the powermongers want to hear them.

I think “people like that” might be the ones who save us from drowning in the increasingly belligerent seas of tossers erupting in places like that.

 

[thfcsteff]

i do agree, the Country has gone soft and allowed all sorts arseholes to get away with all sorts of brick. To many social workers and soft judges.

Sigh.
And I suppose he answer is to bring back the birch???
If you really want to debate why we are where we are I will happily engage. But it has nothing much to do with “soft” and everything to do with powerful people wrangling stupidity as well as lack of education and the lack of importance placed on values. Which again has nothing to do with “going soft”...

 

[thfcsteff]

Watching the video again, I'm not convinced the force was all that excessive.

Those bingo wings alone must have weighed a couple of stone and taken some shifting. He was probably (rightly) also a bit scared of getting ginger on him.

Twice in a week! Again, despite disagreeing vehemently, I cannot deny that the sheer vitriolic comedy here made me laugh (especially the ginger bit). Plus as wrong as it is, whenever the phrase “bingo wings” arises, I always chuckle far more than I should!

 

[thfcsteff]

Thanks mate. This problem is far bigger than Sadiq Khan. I like Sadiq and voted for him but he has made mistakes, (which politician hasn't?). The rise in crime I don't think is just confined to London but around the country.

One of my biggest worries is not that we are soft on crime per se, but we have created a perfect environment for organised crime to flourish. There something in the news about this a few months back from the National Crime Agency. Other than that I don't think it is being taken seriously enough other than a few high profile drug busts.

Part of the reason are cuts to different agencies. The police always shout the loudest of course, but agencies like the Custom's arms of HMRC have been cut to the bone so there is not enough enforcement on smuggling. Local authorities who I now work for have been cut to the bone and their powers diluted because the civil liberties rude boys fear they will misuse them. On the last point from my experience Police officers are much more likely to abuse powers than LAs. So for example many agencies do not understand the data protection laws and do not want to share information in the mistaken belief that they will breach the law.

The criminals exploit loopholes in law, are adept with technology often much more than the enforcement agencies, they understand social media and exploit the weaknesses of the enforcement agencies including the fact that some of our lawyers are just not good enough.

Lots of Police officers do an amazing job, but the Met has issues with recruitment, competence etc. Numbers alone are not the answer but ensuring we have well trained officers who understand the law and to use them more tactically. So for example I have questioned why the Police are devoting so much resource to investigating Grenfell which is ostensibly a fire safety and health and safety issue.

Finally the politicians of all parties have failed to get a grip on this problem as they have become so paralysed by Brexit. I cannot see that changing anytime soon unfortunately.

I hope I have given a reasonable answer to your question mate. I could go on all night but I would just bore you.

Great insight.
Can I ask if you believe that the only logical way to stay afloat in a post-Brexit world would be to become a nation where others can clean their dirty money and operate with a higher degree of impunity and protection?