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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Parklaner81 said:
When so many people wouldn't accept the result of a straightforward in/out ballot? I wouldn't hold my breath.
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What does that actually mean though?

We have a right not to accept it and to continue campaigning for what we think is right.

We have that right whatever, but even more so considering the fact that the winning side broke the law, exactly in order to win. And that’s even before you get to the Big Three lies of the Leave campaign.

And yet, the fact is that the result has in fact been accepted and enacted by the establishment:

Article 50 was triggered, an election was called to strengthen the leader’s position, a withdrawal agreement done with our interlocutors and some £4bn spent on preparations.

If leavers has voted for May's deal we’d be out by now. So you can’t blame Remainers for this situation.

And surely you must ask yourself: if brexit is so fragile that it can be defeated by the mere prospect of opposition, is it such a strong proposition in the first place?
 
And if you accept that leaving is not easy, then vote Leave leaders have to take some responsibility.

Brexit has not happened because Brexit is extremely hard to deliver. Yet we were told by vote Leave leaders, posters on here, it would all be easy as and empowering. Now that it wasn’t, the Leave leaders change the narrative. Moaning that they have been failed by others.

No. The failure was promising something that was undeliverable. Promise milk and honey, when it doesn’t arrive blame others for your false promises. How long will people fall for that?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
the dza said:
You make some good points. The bolded bit, I would suggest that unity around Brexit is impossible right now. The only way I think you'd get close to it is if we left with no deal, it was a disaster, and then a big majority of people said "phuck this, just go back to how it was." Churchill could unify, but we had a mortal threat to unify against. With Brexit, everyone thinks that their side leads to prosperity whilst the other side leads to ruin, nobody can agree on any of it.
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Similar to Blair.

The problem there is, if we no deal Brexit and it falls to brick (it won't, it will slow and perspective will become diluted - so even though it's worse, no one will actually react to it) - there is no way back in that doesn't involve full EU membership, Inc the Euro.

Although I guess if it gets that bad, the Euro might even be palatable - that would be a very sad day.
 
monkeybarry said:
Similar to Blair.

The problem there is, if we no deal Brexit and it falls to brick (it won't, it will slow and perspective will become diluted - so even though it's worse, no one will actually react to it) - there is no way back in that doesn't involve full EU membership, Inc the Euro.

Although I guess if it gets that bad, the Euro might even be palatable - that would be a very sad day.
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Correct, this is the only way back into the EU party.
 
Hotshot-Tottenham said:
If leavers has voted for May's deal we’d be out by now. So you can’t blame Remainers for this situation.
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Why would they? It's the kind of worst case deal that only a Remainer could have come up with.

You phrase it like the Leave side got cold feet - that's not the case. May just gave us all a deal that wasn't Leave and was worse than remaining.
 
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scaramanga said:
Why would they? It's the kind of worst case deal that only a Remained could have come up with.

You phrase it like the Leave side got cold feet - that's not the case. May just have us all a deal that wasn't Leave and was worse than remaining.
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I think the leave side absolutely got cold feet, they didn’t want to actually leave, they only wanted to monetise it and score political points.

Farages’ £5m a year Russian stipend disappears the second we are out for example.
 
galeforce said:
I think the leave side absolutely got cold feet, they didn’t want to actually leave, they only wanted to monetise it and score political points.

Farages’ £5m a year Russian stipend disappears the second we are out for example.
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I agree about Farage. As with all single issue politicians, they don't really want to win their issue - that's the end of them if they do.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Becauses it appeals to no one. Leave and remain voters post their votes elsewhere. Sitting on the fence has devistated the 2 major parties. If these Euro results were replicated in a UK GE the Tory's would not have one MP!!! Sitting on the fence is dead. Is May's withdrawal agreement too?



Play this out...Boris goes to Brussels as the new PM. What happens next that is different to what May did? She threatened no deal as well. The EU will put the union of 27 nations over losing some trade with the UK. Why wouldn't they? In short, Boris goes to the EU, and has to deal with the same issues - N. Ireland, agreeing to pay to exit - or else the EU say no dice. Just to sit down with the EU and talk about a trade deal, Boris would have to include the same ingredients as May. He can spin differently, but it would not be much different.

Boris says fine, we're off Claude. Put that in your pipe. The EU will then say you can leave with no deal. It has a bigger implication for you the UK, than it does for our members. The EU will say we don't want no deal, but we have to protect Ireland our member and we can't give you a cake and eat it setup otherwise our members get worse trading terms than you get - outside the EU with the benifits but also free to trade with us. What does Boris' do next?
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Sitting on the fence is an option long term. Whomever carries this poison chalice is in risk of a long stint in the doldrums (unless they miraculously make a good job of it), as the single issue politics slides into the rear view mirror, those with least damage can thrive again. Don't be too drawn in by what are essentially protest votes.

Mays deal is dead. In what form will it live on.

As for her threatening to leave without a deal...more akin to the Lion in Wizard of Oz..'put em up, put em up!'

I know all your answers lead back to the same diatribe about staying in. And I don't disagree that that's an option and realistically no deal is the only other option. (All the in-between stuff is fruitless) On balance I think we're better staying in, not because of any reason other than we don't have the squad to take this country anywhere viable.

If we do stay in though, I'm not sure where that leaves us politically with regards to the people who wanted out , plus I'm not even sure of the pathway to get there.
 
SpurMeUp said:
And if you accept that leaving is not easy, then vote Leave leaders have to take some responsibility.

Brexit has not happened because Brexit is extremely hard to deliver. Yet we were told by vote Leave leaders, posters on here, it would all be easy as and empowering. Now that it wasn’t, the Leave leaders change the narrative. Moaning that they have been failed by others.

No. The failure was promising something that was undeliverable. Promise milk and honey, when it doesn’t arrive blame others for your false promises. How long will people fall for that?

Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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I said it would not be easy but short term pain for long term gain was order of the day, we are voting for not the next 3 months but the next 300 years etc etc etc.

Where remain have dropped the ball, in my opinion, is the continued denial that Brexit it still a thing, even after last night regardless of how you spin it, Brexit as well as Remain is a live argument, but to ignore it to gain some political oneupmanship, is again to ignore whats infront of you.

And to answer to bold, Corbyn was so wrapped up in Brexit he offered neither Brexit or remain to his party in order to try and further his own political career and his party died a death.

Ultimately its one big cluster F--K on both sides, there is no getting away from that.
 
parklane1 said:
Going to start with that racist flimflam again. :rolleyes:
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You say that but and thats good for you as a white male, but my friend was abused in the street and told to 'fudge off out of the country... we voted brexit.'

I was in Liverpool on Tuesday and saw two Asian guys being called Pakxx and screaming Brexit... While telling everyone that he fought for the country.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
He seemed pretty quick after the referendum to go to America and start a media career which I would imagine would be worth more then a mep in Brussels gets.
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I think that trip was to hook up with his buddies Bannon, Banks and Trump at the RNC after his meeting with Assange in the embassy.

edit: and Stone
 
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DTA said:
You say that but and thats good for you as a white male, but my friend was abused in the street and told to 'fudge off out of the country... we voted brexit.'

I was in Liverpool on Tuesday and saw two Asian guys being called Pakxx and screaming Brexit... While telling everyone that he fought for the country.
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i am sorry that happened to you friend, there are racists in every corner but if you read this thread since the first vote you will see that it is either said or suggested that anyone who voted out was racist. Ignorance is in view wherever you look.
 
parklane1 said:
i am sorry that happened to you friend, there are racists in every corner but if you read this thread since the first vote you will see that it is either said or suggested that anyone who voted out was racist. Ignorance is in view wherever you look.
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Not everyone that voted for Brexit is racist. I completely accept that. Never thought for a second that you or @Danishfurniturelover or @Gutter Boy etc are racist... @wiziwig though... Dude is a fascist.
 
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